AST Anima stat allocation

[Hirmu]

Wait wat, you compare a WHM with HPS in a Astro Anima Thread? sorry you are totally off then. And Nidhogg which is known for NOT continuosly casting with alot of downtime? Seems like we're not on the same page then.
First of all during Burstphases an extra spell eg. in the opener is a lot stronger than a minimal buffed one, especially if you allocate your skills not purely into dps but as well as into healing. The potency of an extra malefic II or stone III in the opener beats the potency gain of det or crit, simply because you don't calculate partybuffs in, but that is niche.

In a 10minute fight where you continuously fighting like A7S you can cast 300 spells, its just that ppl dont stack 1000 SpS. or prob a higher number would be even possible, just check the dps page for ast in a7s. I cannot comprehend why you even check the HPS-side since it doesnt make you a skilled player for overhealing like crazy. But yes it adds non-GCDs, but the extra time needed to think which card is right for the correct person also gives you some extra time, alot of AST don't seem to understand that preassigning cards beforehand makes you think alot less.

In the end my points prove nothing but that it nearly never matters which point you take, both stats have their pro and cons and to understand them to decide for yourself which playstyle is better for you.

You're arguing over points which have nothing to do with the subject at hand. First of all the stat works for WHM and AST in the same way when they cast something that's on GCD. AST has a native small haste in Diurnal, but it doesn't affect the question of SpS in any way, since you get that whether you boost SpS or something else, so when talking about what effect the stat has in general it doesn't matter which job you're looking at. But just to humour you, the top DPS astro in Nidhogg has 238 ability usages (in a bit shorter win though) and one that's from a fight lasting over 10 minutes, they have 234 ability usages. And again I want to stress that this is all abilities, not just the ones on GCD. And funny enough, they're about the same number that WHMs have. Because all healer jobs cast roughly at the same speed. And yeah, Nidhogg is maybe one with a bit more downtime than usual, but the fact is that even with 1000 SpS you can only cast about 266 times if there's zero downtime, no mechanics to dodge and you have MP to do that constantly. Not that it matters concerning the actual subject though, but your claim that 10 minute fights have 300 casts for healers is just pulled out of thin air and about 100 casts higher than reality.

But all that is beside the point and the fact that you're arguing about it just proves further that you in fact are missing the entire point how to gauge if the stat is worthwile or not. The point is, neither the fight used as an example nor the length of the fight matter at all when the question is if SpS is more valuable compared to crit or det for healers in general. This is because, as explained in the previous post, the value of spellspeed is based on if the additional casts gained with it are worth more than the fewer casts would be boosted by crit and / or det. You will have more casts in a 15 minute fight than a 10 minute fight, but at the same time the boost from crit and det would also be bigger.

The burst phase you're using as an argument works for some DDs (and at least WAR) where damage buffs are applied. Healers don't have damage buffs and I'm at least not aware of any healer opener like this. Can you give me an example and math of a healer opener or burst which is actually better with SpS than crit or det? Because I can't think of any.

But your main argument was that the number of casts matter, and that's completely and utterly wrong. It means absolutely nothing.

I'm just gonna illustrate to you why you're wrong. Let's assume a 1 minute fight with an imaginary spell. Case 1: lots of SpS and low potency. You get 26 casts, each with potency of 100. Total potency 2600. Case 2: low SpS, high potency. You get 24 casts, each with potency of 110. Total potency 2640 and less MP used -> better.

Now obviously I pulled the numbers out of my hat and they're rigged to make crit/det better. They don't prove that SpS is factually worse, but they prove that the sheer number of casts doesn't matter in any way, which was your argument and seems to be the argument that many other people have also said previously.

The real problem at hand is that there's no good way to estimate how much crit and det actually boost the potency and this is especially hard for healers who also need to count for the healing and can't just compare raw dps numbers. SpS is only better if crit and det cannot boost the overall potency enough to overcome the smaller amount of casts but it's hard to prove this. At least before Heavensward SpS was inferior.

However for DPS classes it's pretty much a given that it's crit and det all the way unless you have a spesific need for a certain skillspeed level to get that extra ability inside some buffs, so anecdotically I'd be willing to bet that the same works for healers as well, especially because this used to be the case earlier, too. But if you have math to prove otherwise, I'll happily accept that.

[MariaNyan]

...But all that is beside the point and the fact that you're arguing about it just proves further that you in fact are missing the entire point how to gauge if the stat is worthwile or not.The point is, neither the fight used as an example nor the length of the fight matter at all when the question is if SpS is more valuable compared to crit or det for healers in general. ...

This is where you are completely wrong. Someone who is not playing healer and only looking on theory stuff on paper cannot begin to even comprehend what you are trying to prove. What you basically saying is everyone who takes SpS is an idiot because the numbers on the paper show better hps/dps results. But healing is not about the raw numbers. It's about keeping your team alive on top of dps if theres no need to heal. And i can tell you that SpS makes it easier to keep your team up compared to DET, especially when you are not used to savage content nor do optimized fights. Take it with a grain of salt when i say SpS is the superior Heal/Dps mixed strat because of the safety it provides.

In fact go around ask some of the WHM/AST, not offhealers, on your server how they think about SpS and you will be positively suprised what stats they would pick between DET and SpS, the answer is not as clear as you seem to make it, theres more than only 1 correct answer when it comes to picking stats on the anima weapon.


And regarding crit, its by far the worst stat, ever did a cure III and ripped the agro off the MT in a8s? Crit can also backfire, so pls don't, you jsut kill the tanks dps if they aren't killing it already themselves.

[technole]

I have PIE/ACC/SS on my Sphere of the Last Heir. Mainly for the same reasons most described here.

I don't prefer Crit on a main healer. You can't depend on it, many times it ends up an overheal. Your DPS side may benefit sometimes, and in theory it could save you MP in some instances but it's not a reliable method to go with, as you are managing your MP for what the instance requires. Raid healing is also scripted and you need to cast appropriate heals at the correct times. Some of us would even argue you could end up having to heal "more" long-term with same ilvl Crit subset weapon over one with better substats like SS or DET. Whereas you would be consistently getting more HP on every heal skill and/or HoT potency for each tick. Instead of sometimes a crit, when it's not needed.


If Noct shields would get Crit benefits like Scholar does someday, my opinion might change on optimal AST substats. There is just too much upside with SS or DET. Although DET is to a lesser extent since HW, you kind of need to go all-in like it's about 200 DET for 30 HP.

I don't mean to sound rude, but another healer once told me this simple truth: if you don't need extra PIE on AST or WHM, you simply do not DPS enough, and it's generally true. That extra PIE is also about sometimes being able to choose GCD efficiency over MP efficiency (such as using Cure II instead of spamming Cure I to get back into Cleric earlier), making room for fuck-ups during progression, and other more fuzzy benefits. Also, specifically for the relic, if you find you don't need any of the extra PIE, you can always reallocate it to a substat of your choice until you are at a comfortable level.

Agreed, and I find that to be the case most of the time. Malefic II/Stone III isn't cheap for one. I tell everyone PIE is good, PIE is life. Not only does it give you breathing room for more DPS GCDs, you also have a larger ability to correct raid progression mistakes. Whereas with a minimal PIE pool you would likely be taken out of DPS potential because of the latter. It's all about giving yourself options at all times. I also look at having your desired PIE on the relic gives more optimal options for gearing. Like whether you want to use to A7S PIE/Crit pants or Lore DET/SS for-example.

[lulunami]

For Diurnal AST and WHM, get close to cap on Accuracy and then prioritize Piety and Spell Speed. Healing is basically balancing two resources: MP and GCD. Sometimes you have to prioritize GCD efficiency over MP efficiency, and vice versa, depending upon the situation. More Spell Speed lets you get in more Stone III's/Malefic II's and make stance dancing with Cleric Stance more easily manageable.

If you wanted to do the most damage, you would choose to max out Spell Speed and Critical Hit Rate. However AST and WHM need more Piety in order to main heal and damage-deal in long encounters so Piety is required. Spell Speed is better to pick over Critical Hit Rate in my humble opinion.

[_slowpoke_]

Spell Speed is better to pick over Critical Hit Rate in my humble opinion.

While I do agree with this, because I prefer consistent stats over RNG-based ones for healing, Crit actually is the slightly better stat in pure theory. Not only does it scale in a non-linear way (the more Crit you have, the more you will gain from additional Crit, which is not the case for SpS and Det, which scale in a linear fashion), it's also - again theoretically - the best stat for throughput in both DPS and healing.

However, Crit is only better if you look at averages, which is why it's a no-brainer for DPS jobs to focus on Crit after meeting all necessary caps/plateaus. Healing, however, is very rarely about averages (which is why no one will seriously look at HPS to judge healer performance), but about timely performance with the correct tools, and being consistent in this performance. Crits very rarely actually help, because you can never expect them and thus not plan around them.

That's why Crit as a healing stat falls apart in practice unless you are a SCH, both because the job is actually built around crits as a meaningful mechanic as well as the fact that SCH, as the off-healer, is very DPS-focused in a competent group, giving Crit additional value as a DPS stat.

Removing RNG is also yet another reason why you should hitcap as a healer. It makes your minimum DPS contribution for a given part of a fight a lot more predictable, allowing you to better plan around it. Not having this consistent minimum DPS contribution means not knowing whether or not you are able to push phases early or skip mechanics/damage, which in turn affects how aggressive you can be with stance dancing, your MP solvency, and it can also fuck up your timings and CD planning.

You should obviously be able to adjust to these problems on the fly, because mistakes happen, but reducing the impact mistakes have is important during progression. That is why you should hitcap, that is why extra PIE is important, that is why Vit melds are important (even outside of being required for A8s).

[MariaNyan]

First of all if you dont do savage, you won't need the accuracy. If you do, it's a nobrainer to put in Acc. As an Astro you will prob always replace the WHM, therebefore making you the mainhealer, this means your best friend is piety.
In order to dps you need to overheal, in order to overheal you need more mana, and to get more mana you either get piety or get the bard/mch to become you slave. The more you can overheal, the more time to dps you have, the more mana you burn though. Which comes to the second point, where spellspeed kicks in, if you cannot widen your timeframe with overheal, you can fit one or two gcd more in before you have to heal, which makes spellspeed imo the second-best choice, it will burn your mana quicker but allows you to do additional actions. Determination kicks in if you have neither of these options, and crit is the worst stat, because of several reaons ppl posted above, agro, unreliability, overheal, mp effiency etc. Scholar cannot overheal with shields, since it basically scales unlimited, crit or not, on top of being mostly dps-oriented. To be short:

(ACC)>PIE>SS>DET>CRIT

That's my opinion.

@Taika
you seem to underestimate Spellspeed simply because you don't seem to understand what those 0.1s or 0.15s difference means. In a 10 minute fight you roughly cast 300 Spells. Those translates into 30 or even 45s saved time, which results into way more gcds than you think, not counting in breakpoints like additional dot when boss flies up or the leeway for additional emergency heal.

[DeadRiser]

Do whatever you want. The only way to go is to put your stats fully into two things if you can.

But even then, you will BARELY notice a difference. Unless you are crunching little numbers. It really doesn't matter. If you are a good healer, it doesn't matter what secondary stats you put in.

[Taika]

Based on this discussion and without knowing the actual stat weights, I think the stat choices for AST and WHM are the same. I would avoid spellspeed since it's so difficult to gain any actual benefit from it (for the reasons Hirmu explained in depth above: its benefits seem to remain theoretical and can't be used in actual fights most of the time). For a raid healer AST or WHM who does DPS the most useful stats are probably ACC and PIE. After that I'd go for CRIT (since it seems to scale better than DET in HW and provides a concrete boost to spells) and then finally DET (since it boosts your spells concretely but doesn't scale as well as crit).

So for a raid healer AST or WHM: ACC > PIE > CRIT > DET to get most value out of your stats in my opinion.

[Hirmu]

So basically what you're saying is you've made up your mind and no matter how logical my arguments are you won't change your mind even if I'm right in theory. If for whatever reason you feel that SpS helps you keep the party alive better, you're free to feel so. My gripe is that you're in this thread claiming that people are wrong when the fact is that you for whatever reason disagree but can't even prove your point beyond saying you just think you're right. Just for the record I do play healers quite often, though not in savage at the moment where I'm MCH.

Any way good luck with that attitude, I think I'm done with this discussion unless someone actually wants to discuss about facts and not about true sensitive feelings of the heart

[MariaNyan]

So basically what you're saying is you've made up your mind and no matter how logical my arguments are you won't change your mind even if I'm right in theory. If for whatever reason you feel that SpS helps you keep the party alive better, you're free to feel so. My gripe is that you're in this thread claiming that people are wrong when the fact is that you for whatever reason disagree but can't even prove your point beyond saying you just think you're right. Just for the record I do play healers quite often, though not in savage at the moment where I'm MCH.

Any way good luck with that attitude, I think I'm done with this discussion unless someone actually wants to discuss about facts and not about true sensitive feelings of the heart

because i dont want to derail the thread and keep discussing stuff that is basically statweight, which hasn't been updated forever. To prove you wrong, i discussed with dervy whether on a theoretical standpoint in terms of pure numbers crit/det is better than SpS, and its simply not. If you take a dummy for dps/heal, skillspeed beats out both stats no matter what, @ 1200 SpS+ it even curves out better than Crit. It is mainly my personal feeling, which alot of ppl share, that its better for someone who mains healer for ages. But thats ignoring reality, piety or mechanics and whatever, which basically brings me back to the point - Statweights.
Unless someone is making statweight with all the theory and whistles around it, no point will be proven right or wrong, and take it with a grain of salt again, it is not always better to have crit/det over SpS or the other way around.

And i stop here now because i dont want to discuss this even further(see http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-Stat-Weights/), feel free to do your own research on AST statweight, but short calculations and my gut tells me that SpS is not always worse than crit/det, but also not always better but for sure better for progression without question.