Help lowmanning Operation: Pulling Fangs Apart

[Bahn]

Hey guys, just need some help on a particular Faction leve two of my good friends and I are trying to do.

My team consists of a party of three: myself who's a 50 GLD with Cobalt armor and sword, a PGL with Raptorskin equipment and a 49 CNJ with a Vintage Robe and some other 46-48 stuff.

We're trying to lowman this leve but we ran into a giant brick wall while doing so with the final spawn.

We had no problems with the initial two pairs of Incubator/Drake spawns, but it was when we got to the final NM spawn we would get our butts kicked.

Basically, both the main NM and his pet does too much damage for our CNJ to keep up with. He's outdamaging both me and the PGL and if the CNJ tries to healbomb us he ends up getting major hate.

My damage mitigation skills don't work well against the NM because of the way the level system now works. I'm taking hits between 500-700 damage a pop, and because I can't keep the mobs away from the CNJ I'm simply unable to tank. The non-NM Drakes also take too long for both the PGL and I to kill, and most of my time spent is trying to manage hate so both the PGL and the CNJ don't get ganged up on. The PGL is capable of 1v1ing any of the mobs, but he's getting hit by stray AoEs from the other three mobs, which puts additional pressure on the CNJ.

Basically, I'm wondering if because of the level system changes this leve has turned from a soloable-lowman leve to something that requires 4-8 players. Is there a change we can make to our strategy so that the CNJ doesn't receive so much hate or are we simply too undermanned for this leve? Edit: I'm using Accomplice whenever the CNJ receives hate from the mobs, but since it has a 40 second cooldown timer it's not something I can spam.

Any comments and suggestions on how to beat this level with a small party would be appreciated. Thanks.

Edit #2: Because this is a static 3-man playing group, we all play multiple roles (except that I can't DD at all). In normal fights that involve one or two mobs that don't do 500-700 damage a pop, I usually can keep hate up by using War Drum, Circle Slash II with Cadence, Provoke, Accomplice, and a small bit of self healing.

My GLD build is focused solely towards tanking and hate management. Disorient II, Intimidation trait from MRD, Defender, all three shield skills, Sentinel, Bloodbath, Sac II/Cure II, Circle Slash II w/ Cadence, Accomplice, etc. What in my build am I lacking to keep hate off the CNJ?

The CNJ is a 49 CNJ, he knows he mostly has to healbomb and support our group since we don't have a second CNJ to do DDing and spot heals. His THM is only 22 - we only helped him get there to get a few of the lower support skills from THM. Of course he has the ARC trait to lower hate generation by 10, but his LNC isn't high enough for Collusion - not sure if that's a dealbreaker for this fight.

The PGL hasn't focused his build all that much. His build is mostly typical standard PGL flair: attack buffs + Bloodbath with Victimize II and Simian Thrash to do damage and decent equipment that's not focused towards either DD or tanking. He's like 50% DD, 50% tank and can pretty much 1v1 any of the four mobs that spawn. His MRD is 44, LNC is 42, THM 28, GLA 28, ARC 20. I also think his CNJ is 20 too, purely for some of the lower support skills.

[HiirNoivl]

Judging from your profile page, you dont' have the skills necessary to keep hate from a heal bombing mage. =/

Without more info about your party I'm not sure what to say.

[Bahn]

Judging from your profile page, you dont' have the skills necessary to keep hate from a heal bombing mage. =/

Without more info about your party I'm not sure what to say.

I'm not sure what info you need. Because this is a static 3-man playing group, we all play multiple roles (except that I can't DD at all). In normal fights that involve one or two mobs that don't do 500-700 damage a pop, I usually can keep hate up by using War Drum, Circle Slash II with Cadence, Provoke, Accomplice, and a small bit of self healing.

My GLD build is focused solely towards tanking and hate management. Disorient II, Intimidation trait from MRD, Defender, all three shield skills, Sentinel, Bloodbath, Sac II/Cure II, Circle Slash II w/ Cadence, Accomplice, etc. What in my build am I lacking to keep hate off the CNJ?

The CNJ is a 49 CNJ, he knows he mostly has to healbomb and support our group since we don't have a second CNJ to do DDing and spot heals. His THM is only 22 - we only helped him get there to get a few of the lower support skills from THM. Of course he has the ARC trait to lower hate generation by 10, but his LNC isn't high enough for Collusion - not sure if that's a dealbreaker for this fight.

The PGL hasn't focused his build all that much. His build is mostly typical standard PGL flair: attack buffs + Bloodbath with Victimize II and Simian Thrash to do damage and decent equipment that's not focused towards either DD or tanking. He's like 50% DD, 50% tank and can pretty much 1v1 any of the four mobs that spawn. His MRD is 44, LNC is 42, THM 28, GLA 28, ARC 20. I also think his CNJ is 20 too, purely for some of the lower support skills.

Does that info help?

[Chardrizard]

Get more people, perhabs. It might be balanced for full party post 1.19.

[MariyaShidou]

Use Sleep to sleep non NM Drake, focus on the NM Amaljaa (He can Shadowsear) then the NM Drake. PGL try to stay on the side of the Drake, neither in front or behind, only move behind for Blindside II then move back to side. The FNM is supposed to be for Light Party +, meaning minimum 4 people. If you are going to do it low-manned, you will need to be very effective skill-wise and equipment-wise.

[VydarrTyr]

I'm no expert on lowmanning, so I'm sort of spitballing here. Oddly enough, I did manage to complete this one with 3 people (Lanc, Pug, Conj) after either 1.18 or 1.19. Not sure exactly what we did different. I will say that a) we initially tried it with two (Conj, Pug), and failed hard; b) then tried it with 3, and it ended up kind of a cluster----, with everyone running around trying to keep everyone else alive. But we got it done. ; c) we had me with Conj/Thm @ 50, another person with all 50s, and a Lancer with one 50. So we had a leveling advantage. That may have made a difference.

I'll try to throw out some ideas.

Basically, both the main NM and his pet does too much damage for our CNJ to keep up with. He's outdamaging both me and the PGL and if the CNJ tries to healbomb us he ends up getting major hate.

...

Edit #2: Because this is a static 3-man playing group, we all play multiple roles (except that I can't DD at all). In normal fights that involve one or two mobs that don't do 500-700 damage a pop, I usually can keep hate up by using War Drum, Circle Slash II with Cadence, Provoke, Accomplice, and a small bit of self healing.

Currently, the way hate works right now is (generally) 1 HP damage to the mob = 1 point hate. 1 HP healed = 1 point hate. So if you're getting damaged more than the mob, and the Conj is trying to keep you topped off, the Conj is going to pull all the hate. So:

1) Conj needs to lay back a little. Don't keep you topped off. Just keep you alive.

2) You're probably doing this, but the Conj needs to keep your buffs up. Stoneskin is often a good alternative to a low level cure. It generates very little hate, relative to the damage it absorbs. And Protect/Shell also generate little hate compared to the amount of damage they mitigate.

3) The Pug needs to keep himself alive. If the Conj is curing you both, that's way too much, and the Conj is going to get all the hate, and also going to run out of MP in longer fights. Second Wind, Bloodbath, Cure, Sac, etc.

4) Sounds like the Pug is splitting up targets and 1 v 1ing a target. That would be fine, if the Pug was at least taking the target out of AoE range. But there's no sense in 1 v 1ing if the Pug is going to stay in AoE range. Pug needs to either pull one of the mobs out of AoE range, so they're actually 1 v 1ing, or you should both concentrate fire on one target to take it down faster. (After all, a mob can't cause damage if it's dead.)

5) Warmonger (Mar skill) > War Drum.

6) Gladiator, heal thyself. In fights when we have trouble locking in hate over the long term, we let the Glad get in there and fight solo for a little while before anyone else joins. Warmonger, Provoke, Taunt, throw out some Circle Slashes, and then Cure 3 on yourself. Now the Glad has a huge lead in hate generation. Conj can hit you with Stygian Spikes so you can get MP back up to cure yourself again. And instead of doing "a little bit of self-healing," you need to do as much self-healing as you possibly can. The heal bombs are pulling hate off you, so you need to heal bomb yourself to lock hate on you. Meanwhile, the Conj needs to do as little healing as possible to help you keep hate.

7) Don't completely ignore your DPS as a Glad. You need to be able to keep up some DPS so you won't lose hate. One of the reasons why some parties prefer Marauder tanks is because they can DPS fairly well, which helps keep hate.

8) If you can spare the Action Points and MP -- and this is just a guess based on their hate-generation -- I'd suggest trying out some Absorb spells. If you as a Glad can get them to land, they generate a good bit of hate and they'll help mitigate the mob's damage output, mitigate your damage suffered, and increase your damage against the mob.

9) I'm sure this goes without saying, but don't stand behind the Drakes. That tailwhip hurts.

10) Just remembered one of the things we did. Sleep. Conj casts sleep on all the mobs. Then the Glad/Pug focus fire on one mob until it's dead. The Conj has to keep sleeping the other mobs, and also heal occasionally. But the Conj will have to cure much less often. However, the Glad/Pug have to keep an eye open, too, because if Sleep doesn't stick once, the Glad/Pug have to pull that mob off or it will kill the Conj. (When we did it, I was the Conj, and I died because they couldn't get the Drake off me in time.) Takes some coordination, but man, Sleep works like a charm.

I probably should delete everything else except the Sleep recommendation. But I've already typed it. Hope it helps. Be sure to come back and let us know if it works.

[VydarrTyr]

Dang you, Mariya! While I was typing up that novel, you were coming up with the Sleep recommendation. You're too fast for me.

/sigh

[Bahn]

Thank you for the information everyone. My CNJ was worried that sleep doesn't proc that well, but from what I've seen some users do, I thought Sleep actually has an okay proc rate. I'd like to add that the CNJ does do proper buffs. He's a full fledged CNJ after all. Never thought of refreshing Stoneskin II in the middle of the fight though.

Should I keep BOTH War Drum and Warmonger in my action palette or favor Warmonger over War Drum? I'm really short on Action points here. Should I temporarily drop Still Precision II and Invigorate for this fight to make room for more points into some other skill? Cure II to heal myself or Sac II?

I was thinking of Absorb spells, but I wasn't sure if they were that effective since they sucked in 1.18. I have a few from leveling THM. I was thinking of using Absorb ATK on those guys so I could mitigate the damage I'm taking in.

Should the CNJ be nuking at all or just concentrate on keeping me healed and keeping them Sleeping while trying not to get killed? Does Sleep even work on NM mobs?

Also, because of the fact that there's 3 drakes, it's somewhat difficult to be on the side of most of those drakes while fighting them. They surround us in a circle in a sense sometimes so positioning is tricky. We'll try to work on our positioning, though.

But yeah, our PGL is capable of 1v1ing even the THM NM. The main issue I have is trying to keep the other three away so the PGL doesn't get hit by the AOE from the other three mobs. Also, which mobs should we go for first? The non-NMs? The drake NM or the THM NM? That's the part I'm trying to figure out. If I help the PGL out by focusing attacks on one mob, that means the PGL is going to get hit by the same stuff I'm going to get hit by (the AoEs), whereas, as you pointed out, if I keep the pack away from the PGL, then I'm not going to be able to contribute damage to the mob the PGL is 1v1ing. The longer it takes the PGL to take down the mob, the more damage I'll take over the long run, so it's a bit of a Catch-22 I guess.

The other thing I'm terribly worried about is the THM using Shadowsmear. I'm guessing however if we don't focus on the PGL first this isn't much of a problem since it'll do no damage whatsoever.

[VydarrTyr]

Again, please don't take anything I say as gospel. There's probably no right way to do it. These are all just suggestions.

Thank you for the information everyone. My CNJ was worried that sleep doesn't proc that well, but from what I've seen some users do, I thought Sleep actually has an okay proc rate.

The proc rate is definitely not 100%, but it's not bad. And it's AoE, so even if it sleeps one, that's one less mob that's causing damage, so it's actually less hate that the Conj has to worry about.

Just don't hit a mob after it's been slept.

Never thought of refreshing Stoneskin II in the middle of the fight though.

Stoneskin in the middle of a fight works really well. The biggest problem is the long cast time. But generally, Stoneskin gives less hate than the damage it absorbs, and it takes relatively little MP, so it's pretty good if you can take the time to cast it.

Should I keep BOTH War Drum and Warmonger in my action palette or favor Warmonger over War Drum? I'm really short on Action points here. Should I temporarily drop Still Precision II and Invigorate for this fight to make room for more points into some other skill? Cure II to heal myself or Sac II?

Aye, there's the rub. The fight would be a lot easier if you could equip everything to your bar.

I don't think there's one right answer on which skills to keep and which to drop. And my Glad is only 28, so I'm no expert. These are just my guesses:

I'd prefer Warmonger over War Drum. I'd only keep War Drum if you're having trouble holding adds. But I'd try it without first.

I'd drop Still Precision unless you're having a lot of accuracy problems. If you are having acc problems, consider using Red Lotus 2 (100% hit rate) or Feint (100% hit rate, procs after a miss).

I'm not sure on Invigorate. I'd keep it if you can, and it will help your DPS, but it's not the most important. If you're worried about TP generation, and your bar is filling up, maybe your Pug can use Comrade at Arms?

Since you, as the Glad, want the spell that generates the most hate, I'd go with Cure. You've got to have enough HP to even cast Sac, so it won't work in an emergency when you're low on health.

I was thinking of Absorb spells, but I wasn't sure if they were that effective since they sucked in 1.18. I have a few from leveling THM. I was thinking of using Absorb ATK on those guys so I could mitigate the damage I'm taking in.

That was just kind of a thought. We didn't use them in the fight at all. But they generate a fair amount of hate. I'm just not sure what the proc rate is when used by a Glad. I'd probably try it without them first. But feel free to try them out and see how they work.

Should the CNJ be nuking at all or just concentrate on keeping me healed and keeping them Sleeping while trying not to get killed? Does Sleep even work on NM mobs?

I'd leave that up to the Conj. They've all got different playstyles. I think I cast a few debuffs, maybe some Paralyze. But I was mostly trying to watch everyone's health, cast sleep whenever possible, conserve MP for emergencies, avoid generating any hate, and not waking the sleeping mobs.

Since your Conj is having problems with getting hate, I would suggest not casting nukes. If your Conj wants to get in on the DPS action, I'd suggest DoTs. And be careful not to hit the sleeping mobs.

Also, because of the fact that there's 3 drakes, it's somewhat difficult to be on the side of most of those drakes while fighting them. They surround us in a circle in a sense sometimes so positioning is tricky. We'll try to work on our positioning, though.

Definitely true. You might not be able to stand in a perfect spot relative to all mobs. Just work on the best position you can.

But yeah, our PGL is capable of 1v1ing even the THM NM. The main issue I have is trying to keep the other three away so the PGL doesn't get hit by the AOE from the other three mobs.

At best, I'd probably reverse the priority here. The Pug should have an easier time pulling one mob away from the group, if that's what you want to do. You hold whatever mobs you can, and the Pug can pull one mob away to wherever it won't get hit by AoE.

But I'd consider trying to keep all the mobs together. It will make it easier for the Conj to sleep all the mobs; it will make it easier for you to hold hate; it will make it easier for the Conj to reach the Pug with any lifesaving cures necessary; and if any mobs aren't slept and go after the Conj, it will make it easier for you and the Pug to grab that mob.

Also, which mobs should we go for first? The non-NMs? The drake NM or the THM NM? That's the part I'm trying to figure out. If I help the PGL out by focusing attacks on one mob, that means the PGL is going to get hit by the same stuff I'm going to get hit by (the AoEs), whereas, as you pointed out, if I keep the pack away from the PGL, then I'm not going to be able to contribute damage to the mob the PGL is 1v1ing. The longer it takes the PGL to take down the mob, the more damage I'll take over the long run, so it's a bit of a Catch-22 I guess.

I think I'd keep the mobs together. Pull all the mobs together, then the Conj casts Sleep. Then concentrate fire on whatever mobs a) aren't slept, and b) have the fewest HP and cause the most damage. So, if they're all slept, you kill the Thm first. Mariya -- I think wisely -- suggested going after the NM Thm first. Keeping all the mobs together will also make it possible for the Conj to refresh Sleep on them all at once.

But there's more than one way to skin a cat. If the Pug needs to pull one away, have the Pug pull the Thm. And since Thm AoE is conal to the front, make sure the Thm is facing away from the Glad and Conj. That way, only the Pug gets hit with a Shadowsear.

Good luck!