I would like to see Classes treated as proper, separate "Jobs"

[RiceisNice]

Had a thought the other day for Dragoon to change out its MP bar with a Blood of the Dragon bar. Same essential mechanic as BotD, only your bar (much more visible than a small buff icon) represents how much BotD time is left.

That'd be a quaility of life change which honestly puts some use to the UI. As of now, mana is entirely useless on MNK, NIN and DRG but is still there because reasons. If each job had it's own interface to show their respective resources (such as ACN having a better indicator of their aetherflows, or the aforementioned BotD timer). It lends a bit more flavor to the job. But I'd imagine they've shot themselves in the foot with the design of the UI, since classes like LNC, PGL and ROG can use mana, but job crystals take away that ability ,but is still technically the same class.

Let's all assume for a moment that classes ought to be simply removed. Would anything replace those aspects? You've gone from near-zero healing on caster classes to truly zero, removed the majority of (extra-rotational) burst options from all but Bard and Dragoon, wasteful but high-enmity add-grabs from melee, taunts from non-tanks, and enmity management from casters. Does any of this help gameplay?

To chime in, this also goes in line with the cross skill mechanic. Honestly it really adds no depth to the individual jobs other than button bloating. It's literally the same skills sans traits and takes away from the individuality of the job. Especially for "essential" abilities like invigorate, swiftcast, and provoke. Instead of giving each job their own way of managing TP, it's all done in the same manner. Tanks lost a flavor in the taunt department, and swiftcast feels obligatory for healers in almost any content. Not to say remove it completely, but those utilties and dps would be baked into their inherent moveset, if not added as a new skill entirely since you're freeing up 5 skills from cross classing.

But let me present an alternative. You revamp the classes, filling out more of each class's gameplay and identities through mechanical traits, which can then be cross-classed. Each class gets, say, 5 traits. Each job brings in 2 more. Each class at level 60 can take on 8, while having access to the majority of other class's traits cross-class. Each job can take on 7, with fewer cross-class trait options. Now, by combination of gameplay-affecting mechanical passives, you might just have a Gladiator who is both highly customizable and therefore distinct from a PLD.

In general, cross-skilling always comes back to the same problem; there will always be optimal choices and ultimately the ability to select those traits takes away from job identity and homogenizes them. Not to mention something like mechanical traits are designed with the job in mind, whatever works on archer may not nessescarily work on gladiator. For a big change to work, you don't want to take away the idenity of a an existing class, you want to expand on it.

In my honest opinion, it's not the classes that are holding us back, or even any adherence to a class system. It's the adherance to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcly differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development.

It's both imo. The way the class/jobs are now, you can't reasonably make branching jobs due to how they share abilities and traits from 1-50. The way cross skills work now, they are essentially required (and this really isn't up for debate when a fight demands tank swaps) and you end up having skills that are exactly the same on multiple jobs, taking away from individuality, fantasy and flavor. Jobs not having traits is also locking it to those soul crystals, and leads to button bloating (which cross skilling also does) while being unable to add depth or identity.

[Shurrikhan]

In general, cross-skilling always comes back to the same problem; there will always be optimal choices and ultimately the ability to select those traits takes away from job identity and homogenizes them. Not to mention something like mechanical traits are designed with the job in mind, whatever works on archer may not necessarily work on gladiator. For a big change to work, you don't want to take away the identity of an existing class, you want to expand on it.

Agreed; for me there is just one key aim—for the player to love his class/job. But, while that has foremost to do with its core gameplay, it all has to do with its progression and opportunities. In both cases—it comes down to his experiences with it, in and between fights, and perhaps even where it carries over into other classes. I'll prioritize the class itself, sure, but if there's something that adds to the player connection to any and all classes, potentially, rather than homogenizing them, I'll take that. It might not be appropriate until certain changes to how leveling itself works (shared EXP between classes when performing similar functions, or being able to spend EXP on a related class's skill even before you've reached its normal acquisition level on that class, etc.), but I think that's a goal worth undertaking, especially given the lackluster nature of character progression in this game, especially across multiple classes/jobs on the same character.

That said... Is there not a mathematical best in job selection? Yet we still have jobs that aren't technically optimal even in their surrounding compositions, which may already be sub-optimal in a way that advantages that job, attending and clearing content. You're using number-balancing as a reason not to have complexity. It's external complexity in this case, where balance may conflict with what feels "natural" or (therefore) "fun" for a given class/job, and therefore, depending on how you look at it, more appropriate to sacrifice. But it is still that same key argument. I could have sworn you preferred that gameplay & identity be looked at, almost exclusively, before worrying about numbers? I could understand an argument as to this slowing balancing changes necessary for different classes, etc., who are more key to the iconic raiding environment, but to say it's flawed just because balances will be necessary? Just because it might inevitably end up varying a few percent in output over a given fight?

It's both imo. The way the class/jobs are now, you can't reasonably make branching jobs due to how they share abilities and traits from 1-50. The way cross skills work now, they are essentially required (and this really isn't up for debate when a fight demands tank swaps) and you end up having skills that are exactly the same on multiple jobs, taking away from individuality, fantasy and flavor. Jobs not having traits is also locking it to those soul crystals, and leads to button bloating (which cross skilling also does) while being unable to add depth or identity.

It's the adherence to a specific number of stat-increasing traits, the exact same number of traits and abilities given to each class, the exclusion of job traits, similar arbitrary but stubborn rigidities, and the complacency to scarcely differentiate classes integrally—in their gameplay, in their undermechanics, etc.—that cut short any future development

That's exactly what I'm trying to get at though. There's nothing about "a" class system that says that jobs stemming from it must take all the same base skills. You could just as easily give a class more skills than any one job expanding from it can take atop its own unique job skills. Nor is there any rule in a system that happens to have source classes and expanded jobs that the jobs aren't at all allowed to modify the effects of class skills passed on to them. It's not the fact that we have two tiers of broad / customizable and deep / iconic classes-jobs that's holding us back. It's the execution in relating the two to each other.

Idk, it feels really arbitrary when they're essentially forcing you to level other classes just to be able to function in end game (and sometimes not even) content. Specifically abilities like provoke. If it means getting rid of the homogenization of all physical dps getting B4B and invigorate, but instead have 5 new abilties in it's place that gives more depth and identity to each job, I'd rather ditch the cross classing.

This much I definitely agree with. When they continually make fights that necessitate those skills, they just become a part of an awkwardly extended check-list, with yet more components that likely aren't intrinsically fun whatsoever. Being able to explore new avenues though, and being more fluidly able to bring them into your combat style to augment it in ways you wouldn't have expected from your class thematic alone, even if it does in the end fit quite nicely... I would love that.

Of course, we'd first need real class thematics for that to even be a thing.

I'd be fine also with just replacing the cross-class skills with more distinct versions stemming from each separate class; I just don't want to jump to the easier solution without exploring what all character progression advantages a cross-class revamp could offer. One of the things that's always bugged me about this game is how it sells itself as being "all classes on one character" as if that were "alt friendly" when it effectively just means "main + cross-classes per character for best gearing opportunities" and "no quests for your other jobs' leveling, sorry... but at least you get bonus EXP."