Nidhogg? ***main story spoilers***

[takaro13425]

Been having some intense discussion about Nidhogg for the last few days with a few of my FC mates.

The question under debate: Is Nidhogg a primal?

[Judah_Brandt]

No. /10char

[Morningstar1337]

Short Answer: no.

Long Answer: Despite why the mount and the EX trial would have you belive, Nidhogg is not a Primal. These are the following reasons why

• We'd noticed if he was: The Scions and other NPCs would have mention he was a Primal if that was the case. Likewise the Mists didn;t seem to be threatened by his presence, unlike the rets of Dravania
• Never Tempered: He didn't show any signs of tempering anyone thus far. the people and dragons under his command did so of their own choice (Shiva in fact was more likely to temper the Harriers than Nidhogg). Likewise, this was also the reason why Estinien was saved.
• He was originally a dungeon boss: He was the 3rd boss of the Aery, something that seems to be beneath him (all the Primals thus far were fought exclusively in Trials or high end raids)

[Velox]

Pre-Aery Nidhogg is a dragon. Post-ARF Nidhogg is an "essence" or "shade."

[Morningstar1337]

I should also point out that we have a board dedicated to story and backstory.

[Larkspur]

Don't primals generally have an influence from Beast Tribes to be summoned anyway? ie - King Moggle Mog was summoned by moogles praying, Ifrit with Amal'jaa, Ramuh with Sylvans, etc. The only one under debate would be Shiva since that was more of a draconian influence I think?

[Enkidoh]

Primals are essentially a 'will made manifest' - a thoughtform given life and a physical shape by sheer will and a lot of aether (in the form of crystals). Once a Primal has been given form, it then enthralls (as in, tempers) it's summoners into worshiping it, as a Primal requires constant devotion to keep it anchored in the physical plane (this is why they temper). Upon destroying their physical form, their essence returns to the river of aether and awaits it's next summoning, it's tempered followers guaranteeing that it will return (this is why some Primals become 'forgotten' like Belias - their tempered all die out).

Elder dragons on the other hand (as in, the First Brood like Nidhogg), are living breathing entities

(as Nidhogg showed when Estinien skewered him in the Aery and was coated in his blood), but their souls and power are also contained within their eyes, which are basically separate aspects of their body. It seems that these eyes can also be interchangeable between dragons, allowing one to confer part of their power to another who is mortally injured and has lost them (this is what happened to Nidhogg, as both his eyes were stolen by Haldrath and the Ishgardians, Hraesvelgar gave one of his eyes to Nidhogg, saving him mortally and allowing him to wage his bloody 1000 year war of vengeance.... but not being strong enough to actually finish off Ishgard decisively. Between having to draw on Hraesvelgar's borrowed eye and the fact the Ishgardians then used Nidhogg's stolen eyes' power against him prevented Nidhogg and the Horde from destroying Ishgard, instead he would fly around, hassle Ishgardian forces, obliterate outlying towns and villages, before withdrawing and going into slumber for a few centuries, before awakening and repeating the cycle.

This is why the Dragonsong War turned so bloody during Heavensward, because even though we succeeded in destroying Nidhogg's physical body, there was enough of it coating Estinien's DRG AF for Nidhogg's eyes to literally fuse to it and re materialize his physical form, drawing on Estinien's rage at losing his family ironically to the very force now possessing him.

So basically the elder dragons are not Primals, they're living entities whose life force are contained within their eyes, which if enough of their physical remains uh.. remain... they can reanimate and draw on. (And yes, we have a dedicated section for this kind of thing in this forum ).

[Lambdafish]

My observations are that Nidhogg isn't a primal, but does behave remarkably like one. The official definition of what we fight on the final steps of faith is "Nidhogg's shade", and on the surface he does seem rather primal-like, he isn't the real Nidhogg, that one was "killed" in the Aery, rather an embodiment of his wrath trapped within his eyes.

The differences between the shade and a primal seem to be the fact that its aetherical body manifests via the aether from the eyes, rather than draining the planet's aether, and it seems very parasitic in nature, building itself around estinian, with the shade being the one in control (contrary to what we have seen in transformative primals in the past, i.e shiva and thordan). Other than that, it is very akin to a primal, and I feel that this hasn't been addressed enough in the lore.

I guess we could liken nidhogg to an unsent from FFX, his soul lingering in his eyes, refusing to move on.

[Morningstar1337]

There does seem to be an overlap. The Shade of the Malice Striker may not be a primal, but one of his siblings is, which combined with Midgardsomnr's mention being unable to temper you (Note: Midgardsomnr isn't a primal either), and the aforementioned Lanner and EX trial might had been the source of the confusion.

Don't primals generally have an influence from Beast Tribes to be summoned anyway? ie - King Moggle Mog was summoned by moogles praying, Ifrit with Amal'jaa, Ramuh with Sylvans, etc. The only one under debate would be Shiva since that was more of a draconian influence I think?

There is Nidhogg's Horde, which might quality for such a thing if he was an actual primal, the actual First Brood/Primal here wound up using his own brood (or more accurately his own brood was forced by Allag) to supply him with the faith needed to sustain him in the material plane

[Ayo_Trippin]

Ayo! I am the arguee. xD

The Scions and other NPCs would have mention he was a Primal if that was the case. Likewise the Mists didn;t seem to be threatened

Throughout the time between the end of 3.2 and 3.3 we didn't really have much conversation with the Scions and all we did talk about was killing him regardless of being a primal. It'd be awkward story-wise to continue piling up reasons he needs to be stopped. However, I feel like the idea of him being considered a 'shade' is meant to hint that he's a primal. Shade in this sense is synonymous with the word ghost, which is what primals are, a spirit manifest into the physical. Every primal is the image of a perceived and deceased deity. Note also, "Nidhogg is wrath incarnate" much like Bahamut, Shiva and Titan. Lastly, Eikon (alt term for primal) means religious image and Banshin (Japanese term for primal) means 'Barbarian God', Nidhogg is both and his story is based on the personality of the Norse deity.