How would I explain this games never changing formula?

[Kosmos992k]

Not to detract from the point but here at least burger places (both large chains and small businesses) no longer just carry burgers on the menu offering things like hotdogs, nacho's, salads, and various other fast food products due to trying to boost business with a broader appeal than a new sauce or an extra patty.

Yes, and as with most businesses that over diversify, they will ultimately refocus on their core business of burgers...

[Yurimi]

Yes, and as with most businesses that over diversify, they will ultimately refocus on their core business of burgers...

As it has been an expanding menu for well over a decade at both big chains (mcdonalds, wendy's, A&W, DQ, Burger King etc) and small businesses around my place, I would say that it has been at least somewhat successful as they continue to do it as they have for years.

Edit: To kind of make this a solid point in my area Mcdonalds is (at least for the drive-thru) open all night, between the hours of 4am-11am they do not sell burgers (unless it is slow and they dont mind making you one specially), you only have their breakfast menu which consists of egg mcmuffins, bacon, eggs, french toast, waffles, hashbrown patties etc. This practice is also mirrored by another burger place A&W who also does not serve unless specifically for you upon request, burgers. Mcdonalds a while ago introduced salads that are still on their menu today. A local burger shop started doing nacho's a few years ago and they are probably the best nacho's I can get in the city and from friend who is a server there they are apperently extremely popular.

[Kosmos992k]

As it has been an expanding menu for well over a decade at both big chains (mcdonalds, wendy's, A&W, DQ, Burger King etc) and small businesses around my place, I would say that it has been at least somewhat successful as they continue to do it as they have for years.

McDonalds only significant business growth in recent yeras has come on the back of extending their breakfast menu to 24 hours. Other than that they have been chipped away at by other smaller nimbler chains offering something new, such as Chipotle. The same is true of the others. McD's occasionally brings a new 'product', but almost without exception they are burgers in structure. McRib? a pork burger with BBQ sauce. Sirloin Burgers, a way of charging twice as much for a burger by selling...another burger. Chicken whether battered, breaded or grilled on a bun - it's just another form of burger, or as McD's term their burgers...sandwiches.

Burger King - the same sort of thing; Wendy's, same again; etc...

Chipotle offers what it offers, Genghis Grill offers it's thing, Corky's BBQ is still BBQ, Outback is steaks, Lonestar is steaks, Grand Panda buffet is still a Chinese food buffet, Red Robin is still a burger joint with presumptions of grandeur...

[Ryel]

Your complaint amounts to saying "this burger is still a burger, I wanted something new, and all you gave me was a different burger."

Well actually his complaint falls more in line with "This burger doesn't taste very good" or "You advertised a new burger on the menu and yet gave me the same exact one as before so it's kind of bland and nothing has really changed with it" and he's voicing these complaints on the discussion area of the forums where the devs have asked us to critique their "burger".

And? At the end of the day, a burger is a burger is a burger. Doesn't matter if it's beef, lamb, goat, kangaroo, buffalo, chicken, turkey or Dodo, it's still a burger. It doesn't matter if it's American, cheddar, Swiss, mozzarella, Colby or Blue cheese, a burger is still a burger.

Interestingly enough you just listed many things that actually separate different types of burgers from each other, with many of those factors determining the taste or preference a person might have towards certain types. It's as broad a spectrum as trying to say "well a video game is a video game" when an FPS may play nothing like an RPG and many MMOs on the market currently don't even have the same base systems besides being open to hundreds of thousands of players.

Saying "well you're in a burger joint" isn't going to mean much when customers are going elsewhere, especially if they're leaving for the competition who also happens to be selling burgers, obviously there may be something they feel is missing.

and since I'm now hungry...

Go enjoy some burgers.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I'm not working for SE. I am the customer, they are the business, do you go to Mc Donald's with amazing ideas for their crappy burgers? I pay, I enjoy paying when I'm having fun. My subscription is still ticking down and I can't be bothered to log on.

How is SE supposed to cater to you or like-minded people if they do not know what content you want? You complaining on their forum is no different than tumblr whining.

"We want change now!"
"What can of change?"
"We don't know!"

As your criticism isn't constructive, they've better off looking towards people who are and catering to them.

[Ryel]

How is SE supposed to cater to you or like-minded people if they do not know what content you want?

He did exactly this based on the feedback from the thread.

[Yurimi]

McDonalds only significant business growth in recent yeras has come on the back of extending their breakfast menu to 24 hours. Other than that they have been chipped away at by other smaller nimbler chains offering something new, such as Chipotle. The same is true of the others. McD's occasionally brings a new 'product', but almost without exception they are burgers in structure. McRib? a pork burger with BBQ sauce. Sirloin Burgers, a way of charging twice as much for a burger by selling...another burger. Chicken whether battered, breaded or grilled on a bun - it's just another form of burger, or as McD's term their burgers...sandwiches.

Burger King - the same sort of thing; Wendy's, same again; etc...

Chipotle offers what it offers, Genghis Grill offers it's thing, Corky's BBQ is still BBQ, Outback is steaks, Lonestar is steaks, Grand Panda buffet is still a Chinese food buffet, Red Robin is still a burger joint with presumptions of grandeur...

Starbucks is no longer just a coffee shop it sells sandwhiches (both artisian sandwiches and regular variety on top of breakfast sandwhiches) and various other snacks
Mcdonalds here used to not have McNuggets, is a chicken nugget a burger? Same with the breakfast menu is a plate of eggs and bacon a burger? It wasn't always there.
A&W chubby chicken family started as only chicken strips before they started adding the chubby chicken burger due to popularity (anyone else old enough to remember chubby chicken as a limited time deal?)
Wendy's started adding "healthy options" such as salads, yogurts as well as various other things here
DQ has recently been doing a push through advertising on their hotdogs and poutines here as well as their staple ice creams.
BK now has a side menu at least locally that has an array of products not burger related such as again salads, smoothies, and even things such as fresh fruits
As someone who actually worked at a red robin here I can assure you their menu is FOREVER changing and some things that have shown to be popular have stayed on throughout the years.
Subway here added soups a few years back and personal pizza's a couple years ago.
Tim hortons is no longer just in the business of donuts either so there is that too

[Kosmos992k]

Well actually his complaint falls more in line with "This burger doesn't taste very good" or "You advertised a new burger on the menu and yet gave me the same exact one as before so it's kind of bland and nothing has really changed with it" and he's voicing these complaints on the discussion area of the forums where the devs have asked us to critique their "burger".[/URL]

Not quite. If they delivered the 'same old burger', then we'd have multiple exact copies of Sastasha, Thousand Maws, Tam Tara and Copper Bell Mines to cope with. Obviously, we do not.\

This is what really annoys me about the charge that the content is exactly the same, when it patently is not. A dungeon is a dungeon, a burger is a burger. Different meat is a different flavor. Different dungeon settings are analogous to that different flavor. But the dungeons are not the exact same, nor are the raids. The complaint about sameness leans completely on the overall structure of something being similar. Tokesn vs gil, vs tomes, vs MGP vs any other thing you collect in quantity to exchange for something else. It's all the same, why can't we do something different? Um, because money works. Dungeons are places where a team overcomes an obstacle by working together; sometimes with multiple steps involved, sometimes not. Are all the dungeons in the game exactly the same thing because they are light party dungeons with a boss at the end? If so, then every MMORPG needs an overhaul. Clearly they are not exactly the same, and nor are the trials, which differ mechanically and thematically. How would you make them more different?

Seriously, it's so easy to bash on about same old content, copy pasta, etc... without really getting into the points because as soon as you do, it's obvious that a dungeon is still a dungeon, and a trial is still a trial, but they differ considerably in their content, and other than being dungeons and trials they are not the same as each other.

[QUOTE=Yurimi;3773069]Starbucks is no longer just a coffee shop it sells sandwhiches (both artisian sandwiches and regular variety on top of breakfast sandwhiches) and various other snacks;[quote]
StarBucks have always served snacks with Coffee, expanding the range of snacks doesn't alter the fact that it's a coffee shop.

Mcdonalds here used to not have McNuggets, is a chicken nugget a burger? Same with the breakfast menu is a plate of eggs and bacon a burger? It wasn't always there.

McD's has offered Breakfast since the early 70's, and the McNuggets arrived in the early 80s. They are still not the main attraction and McDs' has refined their menu with the focus on the burgers again and again.

A&W chubby chicken family started as only chicken strips before they started adding the chubby chicken burger due to popularity (anyone else old enough to remember chubby chicken as a limited time deal?)

Don't have an A&W near me, so I can't comment.

Wendy's started adding "healthy options" such as salads, yogurts as well as various other things here

Yogurt would be a form of cold, sweet dairy based desert food, like Ice-cream which Wendy's have always served. Wendy's used to have a Salad Bar...but they are still a burger place at their core.

DQ selling hot dogs is neither new, nor does it alter their core business. BK is still a burger place, much like Wendy's selling yogurt, smoothies are a slight change on the theme of milk shakes and ice cream and keeping a tiny plastic bubble full of week old lettuce does not a salad make.
Red Robin is known for what exactly? Burgers. It's a Burger place. Etc...

None of the examples you have given alter the core business.

Extending to FFXIV for a moment, We have the Gold Saucer, Diadem, PvP, Sight seeing, fishing, Housing, gardening, playing the markets, and other side content that is not part of the main content of the MMORPG we play. Like the salads, yogurts, McNuggets and other side items, these do not alter the core of the game one iota. Which goes back to the core point, a burger is a burger is a burger. if the customer stops liking burgers, no amount of additional burgers will help. Like McDonalds, or any of the other places we've mentioned, you could take a side excursion to a McMuffin, a McRib, or even McNuggets for a while, or even come to McD's less often for a while and eat soe tacos for a change. But, if you like burgers, sooner or later you come back.

In other words, SE has provided ample side content to allow players to take a break within the game, from dungeons, raids and trials. But let's face reality and truth, dungeons, raids and trials will always be core to this game since it is what it is.

So, I say again;

(the) complaint amounts to saying "this burger is still a burger, I wanted something new, and all you gave me was a different burger."

Well, yes, but you're are in a burger joint, so burgers are pretty much the Menu, if you don't like burgers any more, there is a taco stand just down the street.

[SendohJin]

i agree that the dungeons are different but i don't think they are different enough.

this patch took a few little steps in the right direction, the Ozma platform is pretty cool and has multiple levels, the 1st boss in Weeping has two levels kind of. two of the Sohr Khai bosses have rather distinct arenas. the first Hullbreaker Hard "boss" isn't a boss (though I think that fight sucks), it is different.

dungeons can use more changes like that but even more drastic ones.

Haukke Manor is kind of nice where you retrace steps. not everything should be completely linear (though dead ends are kind of a waste since people will stop going to them once they figure it out the first time). they should make certain corridors have multiple levels so people can take different paths even if both lead to the same place. maybe have some with smaller mobs that are more prone to AOE and another with one big mini-boss type so that groups will choose different paths based on party composition.

[Ryel]

Not quite. If they delivered the 'same old burger', then we'd have multiple exact copies of Sastasha, Thousand Maws, Tam Tara and Copper Bell Mines to cope with. Obviously, we do not.\

Some may argue that the hard modes of existing dungeons are almost this, maybe not "exact" but close enough.

This is what really annoys me about the charge that the content is exactly the same, when it patently is not. A dungeon is a dungeon, a burger is a burger. Different meat is a different flavor. Different dungeon settings are analogous to that different flavor. But the dungeons are not the exact same, nor are the raids. The complaint about sameness leans completely on the overall structure of something being similar. Tokesn vs gil, vs tomes, vs MGP vs any other thing you collect in quantity to exchange for something else. It's all the same, why can't we do something different? Um, because money works. Dungeons are places where a team overcomes an obstacle by working together; sometimes with multiple steps involved, sometimes not. Are all the dungeons in the game exactly the same thing because they are light party dungeons with a boss at the end? If so, then every MMORPG needs an overhaul. Clearly they are not exactly the same, and nor are the trials, which differ mechanically and thematically. How would you make them more different?

Except that's kind of the issue, personally speaking as a tank my approach to dungeons has hardly changed since 2.0 dungeons, my job, my levels, and my cool-down order might have but the general flow of content and the method of completion has been almost identical since 2.0 release, in fact the last dungeon to change this somewhat was probably Hullbreaker (Hard) if only because the first "boss" doesn't follow the usual formula.

Saying that we can't change the status quo because they are currently making money off of it falls short of reasoning when players are coming onto the forums voicing their opinions and unsubscribing from the game. Is their money somehow worth less now because they don't enjoy the token grind?

Personally speaking I've seen enough of other MMOs to know that the way we get content now isn't the only way they've been done in other MMOs, dungeons in XI, WoW, GW2, Tera, DCUO, etc all play out very differently in approach and feel to many of the ones we currently have, this is especially true the further back in MMO history you go.

Seriously, it's so easy to bash on about same old content, copy pasta, etc... without really getting into the points because as soon as you do, it's obvious that a dungeon is still a dungeon, and a trial is still a trial, but they differ considerably in their content, and other than being dungeons and trials they are not the same as each other.

The OP of this thread created another specifically detailing many things he would like to see altered with the current state of the game, many of the ideas presented aren't even massive from an overhaul standpoint but are good ideas that would add some diversity to content at the very least, i'd give it a read if you have the time.

Elky's Idea Thread