How would I explain this games never changing formula?

[Ryel]

Your complaint amounts to saying "this burger is still a burger, I wanted something new, and all you gave me was a different burger."

Well actually his complaint falls more in line with "This burger doesn't taste very good" or "You advertised a new burger on the menu and yet gave me the same exact one as before so it's kind of bland and nothing has really changed with it" and he's voicing these complaints on the discussion area of the forums where the devs have asked us to critique their "burger".

And? At the end of the day, a burger is a burger is a burger. Doesn't matter if it's beef, lamb, goat, kangaroo, buffalo, chicken, turkey or Dodo, it's still a burger. It doesn't matter if it's American, cheddar, Swiss, mozzarella, Colby or Blue cheese, a burger is still a burger.

Interestingly enough you just listed many things that actually separate different types of burgers from each other, with many of those factors determining the taste or preference a person might have towards certain types. It's as broad a spectrum as trying to say "well a video game is a video game" when an FPS may play nothing like an RPG and many MMOs on the market currently don't even have the same base systems besides being open to hundreds of thousands of players.

Saying "well you're in a burger joint" isn't going to mean much when customers are going elsewhere, especially if they're leaving for the competition who also happens to be selling burgers, obviously there may be something they feel is missing.

and since I'm now hungry...

Go enjoy some burgers.

[Kosmos992k]

Well actually his complaint falls more in line with "This burger doesn't taste very good" or "You advertised a new burger on the menu and yet gave me the same exact one as before so it's kind of bland and nothing has really changed with it" and he's voicing these complaints on the discussion area of the forums where the devs have asked us to critique their "burger".[/URL]

Not quite. If they delivered the 'same old burger', then we'd have multiple exact copies of Sastasha, Thousand Maws, Tam Tara and Copper Bell Mines to cope with. Obviously, we do not.\

This is what really annoys me about the charge that the content is exactly the same, when it patently is not. A dungeon is a dungeon, a burger is a burger. Different meat is a different flavor. Different dungeon settings are analogous to that different flavor. But the dungeons are not the exact same, nor are the raids. The complaint about sameness leans completely on the overall structure of something being similar. Tokesn vs gil, vs tomes, vs MGP vs any other thing you collect in quantity to exchange for something else. It's all the same, why can't we do something different? Um, because money works. Dungeons are places where a team overcomes an obstacle by working together; sometimes with multiple steps involved, sometimes not. Are all the dungeons in the game exactly the same thing because they are light party dungeons with a boss at the end? If so, then every MMORPG needs an overhaul. Clearly they are not exactly the same, and nor are the trials, which differ mechanically and thematically. How would you make them more different?

Seriously, it's so easy to bash on about same old content, copy pasta, etc... without really getting into the points because as soon as you do, it's obvious that a dungeon is still a dungeon, and a trial is still a trial, but they differ considerably in their content, and other than being dungeons and trials they are not the same as each other.

[QUOTE=Yurimi;3773069]Starbucks is no longer just a coffee shop it sells sandwhiches (both artisian sandwiches and regular variety on top of breakfast sandwhiches) and various other snacks;[quote]
StarBucks have always served snacks with Coffee, expanding the range of snacks doesn't alter the fact that it's a coffee shop.

Mcdonalds here used to not have McNuggets, is a chicken nugget a burger? Same with the breakfast menu is a plate of eggs and bacon a burger? It wasn't always there.

McD's has offered Breakfast since the early 70's, and the McNuggets arrived in the early 80s. They are still not the main attraction and McDs' has refined their menu with the focus on the burgers again and again.

A&W chubby chicken family started as only chicken strips before they started adding the chubby chicken burger due to popularity (anyone else old enough to remember chubby chicken as a limited time deal?)

Don't have an A&W near me, so I can't comment.

Wendy's started adding "healthy options" such as salads, yogurts as well as various other things here

Yogurt would be a form of cold, sweet dairy based desert food, like Ice-cream which Wendy's have always served. Wendy's used to have a Salad Bar...but they are still a burger place at their core.

DQ selling hot dogs is neither new, nor does it alter their core business. BK is still a burger place, much like Wendy's selling yogurt, smoothies are a slight change on the theme of milk shakes and ice cream and keeping a tiny plastic bubble full of week old lettuce does not a salad make.
Red Robin is known for what exactly? Burgers. It's a Burger place. Etc...

None of the examples you have given alter the core business.

Extending to FFXIV for a moment, We have the Gold Saucer, Diadem, PvP, Sight seeing, fishing, Housing, gardening, playing the markets, and other side content that is not part of the main content of the MMORPG we play. Like the salads, yogurts, McNuggets and other side items, these do not alter the core of the game one iota. Which goes back to the core point, a burger is a burger is a burger. if the customer stops liking burgers, no amount of additional burgers will help. Like McDonalds, or any of the other places we've mentioned, you could take a side excursion to a McMuffin, a McRib, or even McNuggets for a while, or even come to McD's less often for a while and eat soe tacos for a change. But, if you like burgers, sooner or later you come back.

In other words, SE has provided ample side content to allow players to take a break within the game, from dungeons, raids and trials. But let's face reality and truth, dungeons, raids and trials will always be core to this game since it is what it is.

So, I say again;

(the) complaint amounts to saying "this burger is still a burger, I wanted something new, and all you gave me was a different burger."

Well, yes, but you're are in a burger joint, so burgers are pretty much the Menu, if you don't like burgers any more, there is a taco stand just down the street.

[SendohJin]

i agree that the dungeons are different but i don't think they are different enough.

this patch took a few little steps in the right direction, the Ozma platform is pretty cool and has multiple levels, the 1st boss in Weeping has two levels kind of. two of the Sohr Khai bosses have rather distinct arenas. the first Hullbreaker Hard "boss" isn't a boss (though I think that fight sucks), it is different.

dungeons can use more changes like that but even more drastic ones.

Haukke Manor is kind of nice where you retrace steps. not everything should be completely linear (though dead ends are kind of a waste since people will stop going to them once they figure it out the first time). they should make certain corridors have multiple levels so people can take different paths even if both lead to the same place. maybe have some with smaller mobs that are more prone to AOE and another with one big mini-boss type so that groups will choose different paths based on party composition.

[Ryel]

Not quite. If they delivered the 'same old burger', then we'd have multiple exact copies of Sastasha, Thousand Maws, Tam Tara and Copper Bell Mines to cope with. Obviously, we do not.\

Some may argue that the hard modes of existing dungeons are almost this, maybe not "exact" but close enough.

This is what really annoys me about the charge that the content is exactly the same, when it patently is not. A dungeon is a dungeon, a burger is a burger. Different meat is a different flavor. Different dungeon settings are analogous to that different flavor. But the dungeons are not the exact same, nor are the raids. The complaint about sameness leans completely on the overall structure of something being similar. Tokesn vs gil, vs tomes, vs MGP vs any other thing you collect in quantity to exchange for something else. It's all the same, why can't we do something different? Um, because money works. Dungeons are places where a team overcomes an obstacle by working together; sometimes with multiple steps involved, sometimes not. Are all the dungeons in the game exactly the same thing because they are light party dungeons with a boss at the end? If so, then every MMORPG needs an overhaul. Clearly they are not exactly the same, and nor are the trials, which differ mechanically and thematically. How would you make them more different?

Except that's kind of the issue, personally speaking as a tank my approach to dungeons has hardly changed since 2.0 dungeons, my job, my levels, and my cool-down order might have but the general flow of content and the method of completion has been almost identical since 2.0 release, in fact the last dungeon to change this somewhat was probably Hullbreaker (Hard) if only because the first "boss" doesn't follow the usual formula.

Saying that we can't change the status quo because they are currently making money off of it falls short of reasoning when players are coming onto the forums voicing their opinions and unsubscribing from the game. Is their money somehow worth less now because they don't enjoy the token grind?

Personally speaking I've seen enough of other MMOs to know that the way we get content now isn't the only way they've been done in other MMOs, dungeons in XI, WoW, GW2, Tera, DCUO, etc all play out very differently in approach and feel to many of the ones we currently have, this is especially true the further back in MMO history you go.

Seriously, it's so easy to bash on about same old content, copy pasta, etc... without really getting into the points because as soon as you do, it's obvious that a dungeon is still a dungeon, and a trial is still a trial, but they differ considerably in their content, and other than being dungeons and trials they are not the same as each other.

The OP of this thread created another specifically detailing many things he would like to see altered with the current state of the game, many of the ideas presented aren't even massive from an overhaul standpoint but are good ideas that would add some diversity to content at the very least, i'd give it a read if you have the time.

Elky's Idea Thread

[Yurimi]

But, if you like burgers, sooner or later you come back.

But in a sea of burger places that also serve burgers what is your business doing to set it apart to get someone to come back. Why go to McDonalds over and again when you enjoy the wider variety of offerings that say The Pink Bicycle offers. Enough people start taking their business elsewhere and yours starts to fail. Do you just keep doing what you have or do you decide to take what makes the other place take your customers away? Do you wait until your business is in ruins before you take those steps?

I am not saying that a dungeon is a dungeon but I am pointing out diversifying your content to appeal to more than just a certain group helps grow your products install base.As it is there is very little in the way of new things that are kept in cycle. Most dungeons are reusing the same 10 or so mechanics. Stack mechanic with a new mob animation (but same indicator)? Shiva ice circles? Titan's Gaols? These are all just a new boss animation in a different fight? I will praise weeping city for it finally adding SOME new mechanics to things but more or less its just the same mechanic in a new order. The side content you mentioned, why is it not being kept terribly relevant?

How often do we step inside the gold saucer these days beside the daily scratch or the cactpot?

Diadem? Where is any sort of update to that to bring it back instead of leaving it as a waste of server space and core system development time? The core system has been made so there is no base system to code which should expedite some development time on.

2 Dungeons a patch with mostly reused mechanics? I love the atmosphere some provide aesthtically so the art team did a great job. The final fight of Sohr Khai was an amazing change so the battle team did a great job on it but how long until that arena style is rehashed to save development time and its just another thing on the list of stuff we have already seen.

Gardening is tied to their horrible housing system which they say all the time "we are working on making it xyz" but at the same time they also said "playing housing will be completely seperate fro free company housing" so planter boxes in an apartment? MAYBE? I wont hold my breath for content that has been a disappointment thus far (why I havent gone to KFC in years and they forever lost my business)

The sight seeing log is interesting, I loved how it started out but it went from well thought about clues to find a place to hey search every inch of this zone because there is one here but we cant be bothered to take the time to give hints anymore. Speaking of which how about we get some updates to this since I finished it ages ago. Would be nice to do some more of it.

PvP is something I dont take an interest in so I cant comment on that so maybe there you will have a point but I can neither confirm or deny it.

The crafting system FINALLY received a much needed revitalization however since the release of this patch what point is there to craft other than crafting gear to craft gear for gear crafting. This really should be kept up on a per patch basis on more than glamor (which is the true end game but maybe not for everyone).

My point is they create all this side stuff to do but then either impliment it horribly (housing) or leave it to fester and die rather than expand on it (diadem) and the content they do focus on for the most part is a new skin on the same product. I can change my mercy from its default skin to a cheeky imp skin and maybe for a few days that will amuse me but in the long run not so much. Also if I go and eat taco's for a little while (play a different game lets say a moba or team based shooter or even a single player experience) then I get a craving for a burger (in this case to play an MMO) with all the selection of places to go these days what if I decide to instead of go to McD's I go to Wendy's instead? Maybe I hop around to a few places and find a new one? That is lost business and for ANY business lost business is bad.

There are a lot of thing this game can do better, and while I am not dissatisfied to the point of quitting yet, the main draw of this game is no longer the content provided rather than the community I am a part of for the social experience and when enough of them quit due to these issues then I will as well.

People leave and they don't come back



And as far as new players joining? It wont always be like that. Eventually it will stagnate or start to decline as people fall out of love and it ages. Less media coverage, less word of mouth, less new players. Maybe it already has as I know i start new characters because the leveling experience is something I enjoy in all games and I have across all servers almost 25ish characters at varying levels (the 7 alts I have on this server are at least 1-2 jobs at 50+) so some of those sprouts may be people like me looking for something to do.

[seraf]

People leave and they don't come back

People have been leaving this game and not coming back since this game came out. I've seen people over the past 2 1/2 years use this same example (your image of inactive players) and it's never amounted to much of anything except anecdotal evidence because people come and go all the time and most people are not going to spend years playing the same game. Will this game eventually start to see less new players joining? Yes, obviously. But it won't be the death of the game by any means.