People are Quitting Too Easily on Extremes

[HyperiusUltima]

I've been noticing a pretty big trend with about any Extreme mode that's been here to date. People after 1-3 tries do the following:

A) Ragequit and auto-leave without warning. Causes issues and breaks apart parties. Happens quite a lot.

B) Get mad at others for not doing X mechanic, or not pulling enough DPS/Heals/Hate. Possible loss of focus and could trip over something while ruminating on it.

C) Get back up and try again(getting rarer and rarer nowadays with PUG groups).

Most of the time it's either internal anger that they blame the group silently or vocally for not being able to do the fight. On release, there's a whole bunch of parties made to work on Nidhogg; but come 3-4 weeks later or a month they're all on farm. It's been the trend, which I understand why, but I'm unsure as to how many players step up to the challenge against the current end-game Extreme.

It's somewhat pitiful how people react and cause such vitriol at times.

[kensatsu]

on training it's a issue, if you are training some phase with people rage quiting after 3 trys, realy just BL someone doing this you need to get rid of them.

for a for down after sometimes if you don't reach last phase people will leaving, because for a for down you are suposed to be near to down it.

for a farm group it's not one issue , because it's not suposed to be a try.

what is funy in some Pugs group is complaining players loving sarcasm :
exemple:
a monk saying : it was not a for down ? [telling the one that messing getting orb on P3 of nidhogg]
a smn saying : it pissed me off it's so suposed to be farm ? [telling the one constantly dying on P1]

[Geist]

I've been noticing a pretty big trend with about any Extreme mode that's been here to date. People after 1-3 tries do the following:

A) Ragequit and auto-leave without warning. Causes issues and breaks apart parties. Happens quite a lot.

B) Get mad at others for not doing X mechanic, or not pulling enough DPS/Heals/Hate. Possible loss of focus and could trip over something while ruminating on it.

C) Get back up and try again(getting rarer and rarer nowadays with PUG groups).

Most of the time I'm of the (C) persuasion myself: we all make mistakes, especially when first learning something, so I'm usually willing to give people a break. I've been there these days, as I've been busy taking on Sephi EX for the first time alongside a FC mate (one or two might follow us in this endeavour soon).

What makes or breaks the omelette, at least for me, is the way people handle teamwork and teammates -- see below.

Most of the time it's either internal anger that they blame the group silently or vocally for not being able to do the fight. On release, there's a whole bunch of parties made to work on Nidhogg; but come 3-4 weeks later or a month they're all on farm. It's been the trend, which I understand why, but I'm unsure as to how many players step up to the challenge against the current end-game Extreme.

It's somewhat pitiful how people react and cause such vitriol at times.

Regarding the specific issue of Nidhogg, I've seen that happen in normal mode as well. It seems to be the kind of fight that really sets people off (nine times out of then, it will be something about the pacing and handling of add phase).

Someone's temper may flare because the time they've invested into the effort is gone bye-bye, a wasted opportunity -- whereas it should be a chance to learn how to overcome problems.

Strategic / tactical divergences have a similar effect at times: as I've noticed with Sephi, having core members of your party disagreeing on how to position markers or a boss and then going their separate ways through repeated replays of the same fight gets tiresome quickly because you're bound to repeat the same kind of mistakes, just by virtue of lacking some measure of direction and a common voice.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be confident about what they know, by the way: but we should at least attempt to motivate and explain choices, especially in the light of one or more failed attempts. Ignoring others (also by shunting out constructive criticism, of course!) or pushing them away is hardly the best path to good teamwork, IMHO. Fair play is our friend when out there.

Reminding oneself that "this is a game" -- yep, even EX modes -- can still ease a little pain and return some focus to you, while providing the motivation to stick around that tiny bit longer... at the very least, long enough to openly and honestly explain why something doesn't seem to be working for you and wish the others good luck.

[randysquirrel]

Because a lot of the time it is a complete waste of time.

Last week I fired up my mentor roulette, got Ramuh Ex. Three or four of the people say it is their first time in there, and they know nothing of the fight. I explain the first few mechanics, thinking if we can at least get those under our belt, we can then start talking about the later ones. I say every other orb cycle the OT must pick up three orbs then voke.

We begin. OT doesn't get any orbs, MT is swiftly one-shotted, followed by everyone else. I reiterate that OT must get three orbs then voke.

Run again, OT doesn't get any orbs and we all die immediately again. Repeat a third time.
Then vote abandon. We never saw more than about the first 40 seconds of the fight, and no-one learnt anything from the experience

[Souljacker]

Low DPS is hands-down the biggest complaint of late, at least that I've seen. I spent the weekend working on Nidhogg Ex with PF groups and one of the groups was all new so they were learning mechanics. I mean, folks were dying to divebombs, moving before scratch marks went out and dropping the floor poop all over the place, everything you can think of that could happen when someone steps into a dungeon with strangers for the first time before they get into the rhythm of the fight\team.

You know what one of the tanks said twice before he bailed on the third pull? "Guys DPS is low."

DPS is low. Nevermind the fact that people were learning the fight and probably weren't on top of their rotations as they learned how to move. DPS is low. Nevermind the fact that the team didn't even MAKE IT to the adds phase at that point. DPS is low.

All he was looking at was his parser and that was his main takeaway from this learning party of two pulls. DPS is low. He bailed, and that was of course the cue for others to follow suit and the party disbanded.

I feel like SE is nurturing an incredibly toxic environment with strict DPS checks, which completely belies their current stance on parsers in general. It makes it hard for players to learn a fight. I wish there were other ways to practice the mechanics so that people could learn how to move outside a toxic group and THEN get into a party.

[bounddreamer]

I find a lot of people misrepresenting their experience in extremes. If the PF says farm, I'm going to leave if we can't clear in three runs. If the PF says final phase/clear, I'm going to leave if we can't even get to adds in three runs. I value my time and act accordingly.

And if I sign up for mentor roulette and get an extreme I will spend the full hour in there with you doing my best. Or if someone asks me to join a learning party, and I have the time and feel up to it, I'll give you an hour's worth of runs.

What I won't do is waste time on a duty that isn't what I signed up for. I'm done toughing it out when there's no progression.

[Souljacker]

I find a lot of people misrepresenting their experience in extremes. If the PF says farm, I'm going to leave if we can't clear in three runs. If the PF says final phase/clear, I'm going to leave if we can't even get to adds in three runs. I value my time and act accordingly.


And if I sign up for mentor roulette and get an extreme I will spend the full hour in there with you doing my best. Or if someone asks me to join a learning party, and I have the time and feel up to it, I'll give you an hour's worth of runs.

What I won't do is waste time on a duty that isn't what I signed up for. I'm done toughing it out when there's no progression.

No one is suggesting that you shouldn't expect a clear for farm parties. We're talking about learning parties for extreme mode content (not mentor roulette which isn't even relevant) so I guess you missed that part of the conversation. People are bailing after 1-2 pulls on learning parties that are clearly advertised as such because of the reasons you just cited. Learning parties are not farm parties.

So, congratulations on missing the point? Or I guess you are just calling us all liars who must be trying to get into your farm parties to get carried.

[bounddreamer]

No? Actually I think you're the one who missed my point completely, but thanks for the extra helping of acrimony.

My basic point was that people are misrepresenting their experience in extremes, from everything from learning to farm parties. I don't lack patience but I won't stick with something that isn't what I signed up for.

Idk how it is on your server but on mine, people indicate what phase of the fight they're working on. My friend started a fang/claw progression party on Saturday. It was four horrible wipes from start to finish. At least one person was dying to basic stuff that you see in the normal Final Steps of Faith duty.

People bail after certain indicators from the party wipes tell them, in their experience, it's not worth spending more time on.

[HyperiusUltima]

The real question bound, is what indicators will show?

To my attention I think it's the following:

- Party is not progressing after wiping X time
- Party Finder Ad isn't true, such as someone posting "Learning Fang and Claw" and people are wiping on Add Phase repeatedly
- Party DPS is too low as some people state when they have a set expectation for when to move on to the next phase
- Mechanics are done improperly.

That's just a few ideas I thought people might ruminate on and set expectations for.

[bounddreamer]

If it's a brand new learning party, things like (all of this has happened to me):

- tank doesn't ready check before pulling
- tank doesn't use a pull macro
- tank doesn't know what a pull macro is
- people die to really obvious mechanics repeatedly (don't stand in aoes)
- after explaining a strategy for a mechanic, multiple party members continue to get it wrong every time
- one of the party members spends more time dead than alive (at that point they're definitely not learning the fight)
- one of my parsing friends indicates how low someone's damage is. We look at what actions they're taking. It's obvious they have no idea what their rotation is or how to deal meaningful damage
- we spend twenty minutes trying to get past the first mechanic of the fight and can't survive it as a group

I've spent many many hours trying to get my FC mates and friends EX clears. You get an instinct for groups that can progress and those who are going to spend the whole time wiping the floor.