Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Lokier]

Go find a static or remain silent. D/F isn't going to change.

[Kaurie]

Neither are you if that's the case your only proof is that people don't like it because they make a forum post about it here and of reddit so it most be a large problem to the community that's your argument. My counter to that is they make up a small part of the community as shown by the number of reddit subscribers along with your census data and the low amount of thread about this topic on either. Now if your looking for hard numbers for neither of us will find any for either argument unless you wanna track down the a good percentage of the player base to get a decent sample be my guest.

As for the bit about your competitive nature you are the one that brought it up and we've already established that you are bugged by people not doing their upmost in a dungeon run because it slows you down like its a race or something or sense you feel that if you're trying as best you expect everyone else should do the same.

I provided evidence that there are some people who are harassing others in the current situation. I make the case that the number of harassment issues will remain stagnant whether a parser is added or not (it will just change who does the harassing but total number of incidents will remain relatively the same). I provided my reasoning for this. Your case is that there will be a large difference and have provided no reasoning to suggest that it would be.

Anyway, I enjoy having intelligent conversations, but this has become quite circular and you're refusing to actually contribute meaningfully. You could simply respond and say, I don't know that there will be an increase, no one knows, but I think there will be. That's fine, we're all allowed to think things and no one does know the future. The issue is that you said matter-of-factly that it would, and then provided nothing to back that up.

Additionally, I'd like to note that you have a misunderstanding of my argument. I do not think harassment currently is a large problem. I don't think it happens frequently, anyway. Though, I do think that even 1 person being harassed is a significant enough issue to warrant attention. My argument is that the volume of harassment incidents will remain unchanged with the addition of a parser.

I think Yoshi-P doesn't allow in-game parsing because.. well, look at WoW; Any excuse to kick / belittle someone is used because of damage meter, he wants to avoid people being judged, or feeling judged, for what damage it is they're doing. If people want to eyeball their dps they can just download ACT and set that up, there's nothing stopping people... Well, unless you're not part of the PC master race, then you're on your own. :P
Besides, if people are so worried about what others are doing then they need to stop using D/F and start making statics to avoid playing with people "below" their standards. Start black-balling players for their terrible play-style via your realm (since you can blacklist and avoid these people for nexttime.)

There's plenty of solutions, and even then... Parsers don't make people better players. x)

I do look at wow, and outside of the LFR in WoW, the community is generally less toxic there than here from my experience. That said, I am sure there are jerks in both games. My point is that a parser doesn't create jerks, it merely tilts the power between the two camps of people. The conflict will always be there, because there will always be conflicting play styles and values.

[Underdog2204]

I don't remember WoW being less toxic tahn FFXIV's, made my first character on it and I remember being ridiculed numerous times because he wasn't geared up by randoms in dungeons... Didn't get anyu better when I did get the gear as I saw it happening to others. This was until the point I saw less and less actual new people reaching endgame it was mostly just alts with heirlooms. Can't say I suprised, WoW reputation didn't come out of no-where.

Can't say I've seen aynthing like that on this, not even once.

[Kaurie]

I don't remember WoW being less toxic tahn FFXIV's, made my first character on it and I remember being ridiculed numerous times because he wasn't geared up by randoms in dungeons... Didn't get anyu better when I did get the gear as I saw it happening to others. This was until the point I saw less and less actual new people reaching endgame it was mostly just alts with heirlooms. Can't say I suprised, WoW reputation didn't come out of no-where.

Can't say I've seen aynthing like that on this, not even once.

Naturally everyone's experience will differ. Most of my experience in both games has been pretty positive. The ones that stand out that are really bad (outside of LFR/24-persons in FFXIV) are in FFXIV, but that is because I have more hours on this game (most likely).

[Lokier]

Okay, so I managed to escape D/F for a bit;

Let's keep it 100, damage meters and parcers don't make players good at what they do, all they do is make you go 'oh, I did good that time' #onwithmylife.
If a person wants to be good at their class they study and do research, they care. Handing them a damage meter or parser isn't going to make the community or playerbase suddenly better. The people you want to play with, or are describing, don't do D/F to raid, they have their own FC, their own trusted players and their own static.

What you guys want is harder content, not pissy content that spoon-feeds and allows for AFK fights. D/F is this. D/F is 2-minute rice. If you want players to learn their class you have to force them to break their fingers trying to push their class to the extreme to pass content and dungeons, and quite frankily we don't have that kind of content outside savage raiding (which you aint doing unless you want a static group.)
D/F is for the lazy and for people with no time to wait for FC members to log on, and for people who want it easy. Why you guys seem to expect more than that sort of community from a dungeon finder is beyond me. Back in the day, before D/F or dungeon finders were a thing, you had to work with your realm community, build up reputation with these people and do a good god damn job to avoid being black listed from future content.

Duty finder requires none of these things, you don't have to try because you'll never see or hear from these people ever again. There's no incentive for you to get any better at your class. So at the end of the day the real issue comes down to two things; you could remove duty finder and force people to avoid being black balled by learning their class to get anywhere in life, or you can make all dungeons hard / EXT. mode and watch the lazy ones no longer use D/F (increasing your waiting time) because they can no longer be lazy or bad at their class.

[thegreatonemal]

snip.

Did you lose you're train of thought or something? We weren't talking about the effects of parser in the DF.

[Arrius]

Let's keep it 100, damage meters and parcers don't make players good at what they do, all they do is make you go 'oh, I did good that time' #onwithmylife.
If a person wants to be good at their class they study and do research, they care. Handing them a damage meter or parser isn't going to make the community or playerbase suddenly better. The people you want to play with, or are describing, don't do D/F to raid, they have their own FC, their own trusted players and their own static.

Of course they don't make a player 'good' by itself, it is a information tool for players to analyse their performance. It can make them better if they use the results to change and improve their playstyle.

Beside that, would everyone do the said research about their class in the respective forums/reddit threads like you described, then we wouldn't have this problem in the first place, don't you think?
And don't come with the 'just for fun' thing; doing dungeons is the same as crafting and gathering - You memorize your action patterns, then execute for results. Only that the latter two comes with a personal loss rather than affecting a whole group.

What you guys want is harder content, not pissy content that spoon-feeds and allows for AFK fights. D/F is this. D/F is 2-minute rice.

Just because D/F is '2-Minute Rice', as you say it here, that doesn't mean to be an excuse to slack off on the performance. Getting better with your class benefits all, alone through faster clearing times.

Duty finder requires none of these things, you don't have to try because you'll never see or hear from these people ever again.

And that is one of these reasons, this 'lol who cares right' attitude, which is contributing to the decline in D/F. Guess what the Japanese have regarding your reputation thing : They use a website, where they tag bad people and list them up for others to avoid in dungeons. And they are terrifyingly efficient with this on the whole datacenter.

[Lokier]

And that is one of these reasons, this 'lol who cares right' attitude, which is contributing to the decline in D/F. Guess what the Japanese have regarding your reputation thing : They use a website, where they tag bad people and list them up for others to avoid in dungeons. And they are terrifyingly efficient with this on the whole datacenter.

Then what are you waiting for? Get off your back-side and start name-shaming, lol.

[Jatoi]

You know that the NA mentality is kinda bad when an idea like this is proposed.

[MihaelB]

You know that the NA mentality is kinda bad when an idea like this is proposed.

Or you know it's bad when randomly extracting from the pulling their weight thread:

ya its sad at times how un optimized ppl play their class. Only thing you can do is well.. you said not to make it a friend argument.. but the only thing i can think of is to make more friends. Some ppl play bad on purpose.. I've had a Ice mage in a group before with full fire resist materia gear.. sadly the ice mage wasnt the worst dps i've had in the group before. There are many times where dps can fall to to 300 or 400 range. So basicly they are either eating pizza while doing it, trolling, wants a carry, or lets say they arent an avg person. only thing u can do is pray or make a group.

Today alone while grinding relic I had one Ice Mage, one BLM who didn't use any AOE during the massive packs of Aetherochemical Research Facility, one SMN who would put up his dots and then stand still for 5-10 seconds at a time to cast ruin 1 once, then a DRG who stood in 100% (100%) of things targetting him. But it's all right, that's just how they play

Shame there's so much hand holding, if we just upped the most basic sense of gameplay standard in this game it would be amazing.

Inb4 only play with your close clique and nobody else ever in an MMO.

I have started to see a worrying number of people who literally do nothing but /follow in a duty and expect you to carry them. It makes the duty finder even more of a chore.

I'm just going to bring up about a dozen or so times I've seen a Scholar out-DPS a horrendously under-performing DPS (or three, to be precise). Other people in the party were utilizing that-which-shall-not-be-named and as another responder to you pointed out, Holy is an amazing AoE spell for Whm. Scholar has a multitude of especially useful debuffs and DoTs to throw around that greatly affect fights, so don't discount healer DPS. It can be absolutely amazing if you actually try.

On the subject of this discussion, if people don't get the fact that this discussion isn't about "good vs bad" skill levels, it is about how damn lazy some people are and the fact they don't try. Very clearly the OP and others have said, if you are trying that's all they care about. It is painfully clear when somebody is slacking off compared to at least trying and failing for some reason (like ping, sluggish reactions and fat fingers. People who don't try are what's wrong with the human race due to their expectations of handouts. Sorry, the point of any collectivist action is to benefit the whole, not the individual. Also, I've gone through many pounds of popcorn reading the bickering. Please continue to provide my afternoon entertainment.

Had to dig to find this one which was a major reason for the triggering of this thread:

Well, to be honest, we do have the right to play how we want. She just said she doesn't DPS while healing. I don't either and I've met many others on here who are the same way. It's not a required part of the game, just an optional and smiled upon practice. It's not like a DPS who dances 50% of the time and isn't performing his role. The OP's idea is what I would call "thinking outside the box." It's a very good attitude to have. People here are so judgmental and want to point fingers, punish people and make fun of people over what? How they play a video game... The OP decided on a more positive approach and I commend him for that.

What do you mean exactly when you say "put myself above" those people? I think I understand but wanted to clarify.

Bolded and underlined for you the problem with NA/EU.