Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Underdog2204]

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Nothig toxic in what I said -

1) You are clearly salty over some extra few minutes in a dungeon to the point of segregation.
2) You seem to think spending en extra few minutes in a dungeon is the worst thing ever

Don't like being called out on it? Then don't do it, simple... Your "perception" is not evidence for the "community getting worse". There is something called confirmation bias... I remember when the vast majorty of peole had no idea what the hell they were doing (because the game was new) and now people are coming to join the party later than the rest of us you say they are a problem.

It's a terrible way to act towards people looking to get into the game. You find these newbies so beneath you that you decided that you arn't going to waste your time playing with them anymore. Roulettes are for helping newbies progress and filling up their queues not to suit you.

At least you see segregation as a terrible idea though so cudos there. A parser sounds like it would be all well and good but we all know how much good dps meters do for mmo communites. Ridicule, hate, flaming, elitism etc all becomes the norm. Not something I'm willing to agree to for a small improvement on some dungeon runs.

[Kaurie]

Going to break up your post to address each part clearly, this is in no way used to misrepresent your post, so I am sorry if I do.

Nothig toxic in what I said -

This is toxic.

"OMFG! I have toi spend some time longer in a dungeon coz peoples suck! I could spend that time doing equally trivial and unimportant stuff!" Is not a reason to segregate the commuinity. You want really fast runs? Well enjoy them with the hour long queue time you'll get.

It's incredibly condescending, using both tone, misspelling and misconstruing my words.

1) You are clearly salty over some extra few minutes in a dungeon to the point of segregation.
2) You seem to think spending en extra few minutes in a dungeon is the worst thing ever

I am not sure what you mean by "to the point of segregation". However, what i am salty about is the protectionism that is put in place on people underperforming. It is more acceptable to go into a dungeon and auto attack and afk than it is to go in and try your hardest and ask the other person to try as well.

Point number 2 is hyperbolic. However, spending an extra 10-15 minutes in a 15 minute dungeon is not fun. Personally, I play the game for enjoyment. It feels much more like a chore that I am doing for other people when I am held back. Again, this is why I don't do roulettes any more (only when I desperately need tomes, which I don't).

Don't like being called out on it? Then don't do it, simple... Your "perception" is not evidence for the "community getting worse". There is something called confirmation bias... I remember when the vast majorty of peole had no idea what the hell they were doing (because the game was new) and now people are coming to join the party later than the rest of us you say they are a problem.

I am sorry, called out on what? I also don't really get what you are talking about with perception being evidence, or what you are getting at with confirmation bias. Perhaps you can more clearly rephrase this paragraph, because I am at a complete loss of your point.

It's a terrible way to act towards people looking to get into the game. You find these newbies so beneath you that you decided that you arn't going to waste your time playing with them anymore. Roulettes are for helping newbies progress and filling up their queues not to suit you.

I am all for helping new players, and I am not sure where you get the impression that I am not? You're making a lot of negative assumptions about me, and it's fairly offensive tbh.

At least you see segregation as a terrible idea though so cudos there. A parser sounds like it would be all well and good but we all know how much good dps meters do for mmo communites. Ridicule, hate, flaming, elitism etc all becomes the norm. Not something I'm willing to agree to for a small improvement on some dungeon runs.

"We" don't know, though. The worst experience I have ever seen with a DPS meter was in WoW and this was the conversation.

Person A"DPS is too low guys, we're not going to be able to clear it."
Person B"Oh, what should my DPS be, how can I improve it?"
Person A"Wait, is this heroic?"
Us "No, this is normal"
Persona A "Crap, I registered for heroic. Oh well."
..proceeds to clear dungeon

That is the WORST I have ever seen a conversation with a DPS parser active. I've seen far worse conversations here from people who clearly are not parsing. The worst toxicity that I witness is in LFR in WoW and 24-person content in FFXIV. In both, people are generally jerks and it has nothing to do with the parser.

Now, even if a DPS parser brought elitism, I am not convinced that is a worse thing than the anti-elitism community we have here. Both are equally offensive to each other, but at least one results in better play.

[Underdog2204]

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Was poking fun at your argument. Was it dry? Sure. Is it wrong? Not really. There is no reason dungeon runs taking a few minutes longer is a huge issue, you are sat down playing a video game you are not going to spend those minutes curing cancer. Hell I see countless peopple afking lvl 60 zones, minutes seem only to be precious in dungeons for some odd reason.

You said yourself you stopped doing roulettes (there to help newbies) due to dungeons taking longer and the community getting worse... You tell me what I'm supposed to take from that. So you slam the door to newbies but then shout back you are helping them by doing so?

That is certainly not the worse I've seen. Or you know you could just think normally and say "well it's DF there are people on both ends of the spectrum and many inbetween I could get any" and just live with it. Don't care much for the elitist crowd, neither do I care for those too lazy to learn but one of them is not the lesser evil, they are both equally terrible.

[thegreatonemal]

Again, it depends what you think is the appropriate time for the dungeon - not the average. The issue is that the average is longer than it should be. You cannot say "well most runs are fine because they are close to the average". That is completely obvious, that is sort of how statistics etc. work. The issue is that the average, and most players and runs, are quite slow due to people not performing adequately.

Then going by your example is 2 minutes longer than YOU think it should be doesn't not warrant changing the system because of the small minority of you believe you can save a minute or two because the system proposed will cause even more problems. So you have two options you eitehr run with our FC people only or accept the fact that no not all runs are going to be optimal some will take longer then others these runs are on average few and far between.

[Kaurie]

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I think I've said everything that is relevant to the discussion; however, I wanted to reply back and comment on our debate.

I'd recommend in future debates, you keep your language clear and mature and avoid using characterizations. They're simply offensive (and in this case quite incorrect) and serve very little productive purpose. I'd also leave out making so many assumptions. In our back and forth, despite only being a few posts, you made quite a number of incorrect assumptions about me, and then argued against those assumptions. It made debating with you quite frustrating. I'd focus on the points that I explicitly say, and not extended interpretations.

Then going by your example is 2 minutes longer than YOU think it should be doesn't not warrant changing the system because of the small minority of you believe you can save a minute or two because the system proposed will cause even more problems. So you have two options you eitehr run with our FC people only or accept the fact that no not all runs are going to be optimal some will take longer then others these runs are on average few and far between.

That is a fair point, and precisely why I said it depends on what you think is acceptable. However, that is 2 minutes longer on a 3 minute fight (or 10 minutes longer on a 15 minute dungeon run). The issue is that this greatly reduces the 'fun' factor in dungeons. When things take a long time, it feels like you are dragging your feet.

Perhaps an example would be, say you find it really fun to run. So you invite your 3 friends out to run, however, they tether a leash to you and then get down on all 4's and start crawling. This ruins your experience immensely. That is how it feels when a 15 minute run takes 25+ minutes. It's not that it is taking a long time, I have time to spare. It's that the actual experience is lessened. The time that you are in there is less fun. Instead of 15 minutes of fun, you get 25 minutes of not-fun.

In terms of your final point, I often do run with friends and we go through them quite quickly (back when I did roulettes). However, that isn't really what I am getting at here. I am not discussing for personal gain. I am discussing this point as I feel it is important for both the health of the game and the health of the community. As it is, both are at risk.

[Underdog2204]

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See you are saying that but yet you have not stated why they are inncorrect or even tried to correct the fact that the assumptions have been made based on what you have said in your posts. If you don't like thought of as such a person then don't put down you act like it. I even asked you what am I supposed to take away from choosing not to do roulettes due to them taking too long and the community getting worse but you have chosen not to answer.

Saying something is offensive and saying "incorrect" is not an argument... I'd be more than willing to state my thoughts on your actions are wrong but you yourself have chosen to potray yourself in such a way.

How is saying "dungeons taking a few minutes longer sometimes" is not relevent to the discussion? It's quite literally the only reason for you wanting change, saying those extra minutes isn't going to kill you is perfectly relevent.

You say it ruins fun? I say it doesn't because I'm proactive in that regard in my DF groups. I tell jokes, I make fun of people, blame bad smells on the healer etc. My DF runs are fun it's no-one elses fault yours arn't. The community has to fix itself, you cannot expect it to be fixed for you,

[Blackcanary]

very bad idea.

[thegreatonemal]

That is a fair point, and precisely why I said it depends on what you think is acceptable. However, that is 2 minutes longer on a 3 minute fight (or 10 minutes longer on a 15 minute dungeon run). The issue is that this greatly reduces the 'fun' factor in dungeons. When things take a long time, it feels like you are dragging your feet.
However, that isn't really what I am getting at here. I am not discussing for personal gain. I am discussing this point as I feel it is important for both the health of the game and the health of the community. As it is, both are at risk.

Something that does not happen very often is not a danger the game or community. What you're proposing is though.

[Windi]

I find it interesting that the hot topics on this board are usually ones where someone proposes really bad ideas rooted in sheer elitism.

[Kaurie]

See you are saying that but yet you have not stated why they are inncorrect or even tried to correct the fact that the assumptions have been made based on what you have said in your posts. If you don't like thought of as such a person then don't put down you act like it. I even asked you what am I supposed to take away from choosing not to do roulettes due to them taking too long and the community getting worse but you have chosen not to answer.

I did not clarify as I was trying to keep on topic; however, if you insist..

"OMFG! I have toi spend some time longer in a dungeon coz peoples suck! I could spend that time doing equally trivial and unimportant stuff!" Is not a reason to segregate the commuinity. You want really fast runs? Well enjoy them with the hour long queue time you'll get.

This sentence mis-presents my argument. I am not concerned over the time lost so that I can spend it doing elsewhere. For selfish reasons, I am concerned over my enjoyment of the game. However, the reasoning for my post has to do with improving the larger community and has nothing to do with my time spent in or out of dungeons.

Can I tell when the other dps isn't playing well? Yes ofc. Does it make me salty to a point I feel the need to segregate myselff? Not in the slightest. Also I advocate for anyone who wants to do this can do it voulentarily but they loose their roulettes as there is a purpose for them (to help newbies progress).

You made the assumption that I need to segregate myself. I do not.

1) You are clearly salty over some extra few minutes in a dungeon to the point of segregation.

I am not "salty" over an extra few minutes in a dungeon, nor do I advocate segregation

2) You seem to think spending en extra few minutes in a dungeon is the worst thing ever

Hyperbolic to the point that this cannot be true; however, looking past that, I am not very concerned with the extra few minutes (I have less fun, but that doesn't = being concerned). Again, my main concern has more to do with the community.

Don't like being called out on it? Then don't do it, simple... Your "perception" is not evidence for the "community getting worse". There is something called confirmation bias... I remember when the vast majorty of peole had no idea what the hell they were doing (because the game was new) and now people are coming to join the party later than the rest of us you say they are a problem.

I still have zero idea what you are saying here.

It's a terrible way to act towards people looking to get into the game. You find these newbies so beneath you that you decided that you arn't going to waste your time playing with them anymore. Roulettes are for helping newbies progress and filling up their queues not to suit you.

I do not find newbies or poorer players beneath me. When the opportunities arise, I help newbies. Whether that is in a roulette, in reddit or elsewhere. I am always willing to provide tips to help them improve.

At least you see segregation as a terrible idea though so cudos there. A parser sounds like it would be all well and good but we all know how much good dps meters do for mmo communites. Ridicule, hate, flaming, elitism etc all becomes the norm. Not something I'm willing to agree to for a small improvement on some dungeon runs.

We do not know how DPS meters do this. My experience greatly differs, and I think to suggest that it is the "norm" is exaggerated. While I can see some of these issues occurring, I doubt it's as widespread as you suggest. You've yet to provide any evidence or study to support this claim.

Was poking fun at your argument. Was it dry? Sure. Is it wrong? Not really. There is no reason dungeon runs taking a few minutes longer is a huge issue, you are sat down playing a video game you are not going to spend those minutes curing cancer. Hell I see countless peopple afking lvl 60 zones, minutes seem only to be precious in dungeons for some odd reason.

It was wrong, as I stated above. It was also toxic and unnecessary. I do find it difficult to relate to the idea that tackling a challenge together as a team shouldn't require active effort from everyone involved. It seems like that degrades the quality of the challenge and thus the quality of the entertainment.

You said yourself you stopped doing roulettes (there to help newbies) due to dungeons taking longer and the community getting worse... You tell me what I'm supposed to take from that. So you slam the door to newbies but then shout back you are helping them by doing so?

Yes, I stopped doing expert - I do not think most people think expert roulette is there to help newbies. I cant' recall the last time I saw a newbie in expert roulette, or at least one that required guidance or asked for help etc. Further, by the time they reach expert they are officially past the newbie stage (have lost the green leaf). On another note, helping newbies is not exclusive to instanced content, and there is very little correlation with running instanced content and helping newbies. Therefore, coming to the conclusion that someone not doing expert roulette means they are shutting the door to newbies and considers newbies beneath them, seems to be a bit of a stretch.

That is certainly not the worse I've seen. Or you know you could just think normally and say "well it's DF there are people on both ends of the spectrum and many inbetween I could get any" and just live with it. Don't care much for the elitist crowd, neither do I care for those too lazy to learn but one of them is not the lesser evil, they are both equally terrible.

This much I agree on and is the premise of my entire argument.

Saying something is offensive and saying "incorrect" is not an argument... I'd be more than willing to state my thoughts on your actions are wrong but you yourself have chosen to potray yourself in such a way.

If you make a claim, the burden of proof is on you. In that sense, saying your claim is incorrect is an argument and pushes you to provide evidence. If you cannot, then your argument falls flat.

The way I have chosen to portray myself is that I am against segregation, and think that people are offensive on both sides of the table (elitists / anti elitists). I think that both are fairly rare, but both harass the others. In the community we have now, we've given power to the anti-elitists. The alternate option is to give power to the elitists, and that is equally as bad. However, in addition to tipping the scales of that balance, you will also help increase the skill level of all players, which is a positive outcome.

How is saying "dungeons taking a few minutes longer sometimes" is not relevent to the discussion? It's quite literally the only reason for you wanting change, saying those extra minutes isn't going to kill you is perfectly relevent.

Your post said a lot more than dungeons taking a few minutes longer, and the one part you did mention this, you exaggerated points and characterized my argument to belittle me. That said, saying "few minutes longer" is a way to downplay the actual argument. You've actually yet to address my argument, which is that the community would be better if we allowed people to discuss DPS. This would result in more active communication and higher skill levels.

You say it ruins fun? I say it doesn't because I'm proactive in that regard in my DF groups. I tell jokes, I make fun of people, blame bad smells on the healer etc. My DF runs are fun it's no-one elses fault yours arn't. The community has to fix itself, you cannot expect it to be fixed for you,

The community is a direct result of the game design put forth. That is the purpose of this conversation. We are discussing ways the game design can be altered to improve the community, which is currently not doing so well. It's not doing well in the ways of people are actively not trying to allow others do the work for them to obtain their reward. It's not doing well in the way that there is heated arguments over whether healers should contribute DPS. It's not doing well in the ways that people are getting frustrated over not clearing something and taking it out on others without the ability to actually address the problem.

Jokes are fun, you can joke outside of the game too. It's fairly irrelevant to the dungeon run. Making fun of people isn't cool, and am not sure why you're putting that out there as some great attribute of yours.

For your final two sentences, I think you are missing and hitting the point simultaneously. Your DF runs are fun, that's great. However, do you not care at all if the 3 people you are with are also enjoying themselves?

Something that does not happen very often is not a danger the game or community. What you're proposing is though.

That's a fairly large claim. Do you have any reasoning, studies or evidence to back it up?

My reasoning for suggesting that the current state of affairs is an issue is the consistent posts on both the official forums and reddit regarding poor play. The daily posts of people showing screenshots of conversations where people obviously have no clue how to play their job and then treat the person who does like dirt.

Finally, my reasoning is that if you put two groups of people into the same pool, where they have conflicting and opposite view points, conflict will happen. That is the case despite what game design is set. In this situation there are really two ways to address it, tip power to elitism or tip power to anti-elitism. At least with the elitism balance, we'd have people encouraged to play better. In both situations you'll have conflict and harassment, and it's a good thing we have the tools such as vote kick and harassment reports to address those.