Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Brian_]

This is the big thing, and I feel that the side that is advocating against any sort of policing is not understanding the fact that we are talking about those exceptions (which unfortunately from my past experience, is becoming increasingly more common on DF) and that it shouldn't be given a pass, not in the realm of "you aren't playing to my standard, you get vote kicked".

Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

[RiceisNice]

Well like I said earlier, this specific type of policing is counter productive. You don't improve a bad player by burying them in a ditch with all the other bad players. You don't grow the skill level of your player-base by putting a bunch of speed bumps and road blocks on their path of progression.

The primary issue is you need to get people to care. And, this topic does not address that fundamental issue. Bad players who are content with being bad won't care to become better in this system. Good players won't care to extend themselves beyond themselves.

I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

>A performs poorly
>B gives A suggestions
>A Wants to play how he wants to play
>C Doesn't want A to be a burden on the party intentionally
>D Feels that no one should be held accountable for their performance
>Z Jumps in and says that people shouldn't expect people to be playing at top tier in a DF run
>1 wants people like A to at the very least put in basic understanding
>Z sees 1's request as the aforementioned top tier playing expectation

This is more or less what I keep seeing in these sort of discussions; So much of the argument comes from both sides taking their/the opposite perspective to the extreme and missing the context entirely. What was previously an exception in my typical DF run is starting to become more and more frequent.

[Brian_]

I've already said that I'm not advocating on something like this; pushing away the problem won't solve it. However, the design of the content essentially allows for it, combine that with apathetic people who don't care or even encourage it (indirectly or not, such as telling people to stop giving advice or having expectations in DF). If you've kept up with my posts, as well as the quote I was replying to, it's astonishing to see how people are disagreeing with the very idea of wanting people to understand the basics of the game (that, or they lump it in the same category of having high expectations, or any at all).

The design of content in this game is fine. It's the systems around it that fail it.

Our right to play this game how we want and to protect that right is also perfectly fine. That is really the most basic right we all have.

The point everyone misses is that if you want to fix this issue you address the origin of the problem. You don't get caught up in what this topic has become. The origin of this problem has nothing to do with the content. It has nothing to do with player interactions. You go back to before any notion of how we want to play this game is established within our minds and you influence that. It's like Inception -- you have to go deep into their mind, plant an idea at the most basic level, and let it blossom into a result.

And, like I said, that root element is care. You need to change a bad player who doesn't care about improving into a bad player that feels the need to improve. You need to change a good player who doesn't care about helping others into a good player that feels the obligation to help others. Any discussion that actually wants to get anywhere has to provide real solutions aimed at this change.

A grading system can accomplish this. But, this iteration won't. Like I said, this system provides no real reason for a bad player who is content with being bad and playing with other bad players to strive to improve. It also provides no real reason for a good player capable of helping others to actually do so. So long as they do their part and nothing more, they won't have to deal with bad players.

It doesn't build a bridge between the two extremes of players. Rather than force a community to sink or swim together, it deepens the fracture between the extremes by breeding more toxicity at the lower end and fostering even more elitism at the upper end. And, what we'll see is playing out in this topic -- the reasonable moderates just get caught in the whirlpool of conflict between "bads" and "elitists."

[Klamor]

People keep referring to playing this game by any sort of standards as a "right," presumably because they pay a subscription just like everyone else. You playing this game is not a "right" by any stretch of the imagination; it's a privilege. A privilege granted upon yourself because you have the disposable income available to afford it, and SE is kind enough to offer the service to you. With that said, your privilege extends to utilizing other individuals to join your group (and you to join theirs) in order to accomplish a goal that is insurmountable by any of the parts of said group on their own. If you choose to be a faulty cog in the machine that is your group, don't be upset by the probability that you'll soon be replaced by a smoother-turning, less noisy cog.

Plenty of people bring up the whole side of the story that people should "remember that there are people on the other side of the computer" that they're playing with. That goes both ways. Don't be a burden, and expect that others won't be a burden unto you. We're all here to enjoy the game as it's meant to be enjoyed; don't be the one that ruins that enjoyment whether due to your apathy or otherwise. Just, do your part as completely as you're able.

[Neophyte]

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.

[Watachy]

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.

To the top my friend, you said EVERYTHING.

[Evumeimei]

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!


People in this thread.

Pretty much this. If you enjoy doing something don't you want to get better at it (or at least try to)?

[MaeIsMean]

I can't play soccer very good, but still I want to take part in every match available.
But I don't want to train, nor do I want any advice or any strategic/tactic jabbering.
I don't even want to know which position i should play... If I want to go keeper, I just do it and if I decide to do that with my hands tied behind my back you should better live with it.
Everyone who tells me how I should hit the ball to make him go where I want or whoever tells me in what direction I have to play is an elitist!

People in this thread.

Problem is this isn't a professional league with stringent rules and metrics you're expected to earn. It's a game. If someone wanted to play in a soccer league, and signed up with their local one, and chose not to practice between games likely wouldn't be kicked out completely (depends on the league and level of professionalism).

(going to ignore the whole last half of your post because that's just being extreme for the sake of being extreme. People like THAT are so far less than 1% of 1%, you might run into them once a year)

[mp-please]

Problem is this isn't a professional league with stringent rules and metrics you're expected to earn. It's a game. If someone wanted to play in a soccer league, and signed up with their local one, and chose not to practice between games likely wouldn't be kicked out completely (depends on the league and level of professionalism).

(going to ignore the whole last half of your post because that's just being extreme for the sake of being extreme. People like THAT are so far less than 1% of 1%, you might run into them once a year)

Oh please, everyone had that kid in their class that was always the last one to be picked to play soccer.

[MihaelB]

Problem is this isn't a professional league with stringent rules and metrics you're expected to earn. It's a game. If someone wanted to play in a soccer league, and signed up with their local one, and chose not to practice between games likely wouldn't be kicked out completely (depends on the league and level of professionalism).

(going to ignore the whole last half of your post because that's just being extreme for the sake of being extreme. People like THAT are so far less than 1% of 1%, you might run into them once a year)

Two years ago, maybe once during that whole first year of me playing but I wasn't anywhere near high level duty correlation. Now that I've been level 60 for around another year, it's almost every second day I see someone with abysmal DPS.

If the rules let me post all the records I have, you'll know it's not an exaggeration. There are hundreds of records where DPS roles do less DPS than tank and healer. The records can't unfortunately show you whether they're mentors too which a large estimation of 30% in my personal records are.