Forcing NA Duty Finder to be better, we need a grading system.

[Arrius]

I guess it has not been brought up but all of you complaining about the DF are in the extreme minority. Almost everyone's DF run go off without a hitch including all of you complaining here. are there rare cases with people sucking in DF and runs taking 70 of the 90 minutes allowed, yea is it common enough to warrant a grading system which will do nothing but make everyone suffer, no no it is not.

There are more than enough cases of less-than-average performing players, though people usually grind their teeth and endure it as the stress and hazzle arguing with them is too much to bear at times - Especially when the said ones are healers or tanks, facing a long time for a replacement if the said roles decide to dump you in the middle of the instance. And you can bet your arse nearly no one will suffer a 70 minutes run in a dungeon that could've been cleared in 30 or less.

Besides, I don't see a problem for people who do well on their class, since it wouldn't affect them the slightest. It will, however, address the ones who don't do the damage what is to be expected from them and grades them accordingly.
Unless those guys are first-timers in the said dungeons, they are doing these runs for gear/relic progress - And I sure want them to lift their own weight in the group, rather than being carried.

[Kaurie]

I guess it has not been brought up but all of you complaining about the DF are in the extreme minority. Almost everyone's DF run go off without a hitch including all of you complaining here. are there rare cases with people sucking in DF and runs taking 70 of the 90 minutes allowed, yea is it common enough to warrant a grading system which will do nothing but make everyone suffer, no no it is not.

Depends what you call without a hitch.

They've been unpleasant enough that I've stopped doing roulettes.

Do they take 70 minutes? No. Do they take twice as long as they should? Yes. It's not about absolute numbers, but relative ones.

For example, when I drive to work and it takes 10 minutes, that isn't a big deal. When i walk to the bathroom and it takes 30 seconds, not a big deal. If I walked to the bathroom and it took 10 minutes, I'd go insane.

[thegreatonemal]

Thing is your runs aren't taking that long on average you're looking at 2-3 minutes longer maybe. Again nothing to complain about enough to suggest a new ranking system that will do more harm then good.

[Kaurie]

Thing is your runs aren't taking that long on average you're looking at 2-3 minutes longer maybe. Again nothing to complain about enough to suggest a new ranking system that will do more harm then good.

Again, it depends what you think is the appropriate time for the dungeon - not the average. The issue is that the average is longer than it should be. You cannot say "well most runs are fine because they are close to the average". That is completely obvious, that is sort of how statistics etc. work. The issue is that the average, and most players and runs, are quite slow due to people not performing adequately.

When you do a run that has a total group DPS of 3500, and you know that you should be able to get 5700 (DPS 1800 + 1800 + Tank 1100 + Heal 1000), you can feel the run being quite a bit slower. To make that more clear, if a mob has 1 million hp, it will take 285 (just under 5 minutse) seconds with the weaker group vs 175 (just under 3 minutes) seconds with the stronger group

[Underdog2204]

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That is a majorly pressing issue because?... Oh thats right it just isn't.

"OMFG! I have toi spend some time longer in a dungeon coz peoples suck! I could spend that time doing equally trivial and unimportant stuff!" Is not a reason to segregate the commuinity. You want really fast runs? Well enjoy them with the hour long queue time you'll get.

The "appropriate time" is the average time, don't care for your terrible reason as to why it's not. You can't get a more appropriate timescale than the average for your datacentre.

Can I tell when the other dps isn't playing well? Yes ofc. Does it make me salty to a point I feel the need to segregate myselff? Not in the slightest. Also I advocate for anyone who wants to do this can do it voulentarily but they loose their roulettes as there is a purpose for them (to help newbies progress).

[Kaurie]

That is a majorly pressing issue because?... Oh thats right it just isn't.

"OMFG! I have toi spend some time longer in a dungeon coz peoples suck! I could spend that time doing equally trivial and unimportant stuff!" Is not a reason to segregate the commuinity. You want really fast runs? Well enjoy them with the hour long queue time you'll get.

The "appropriate time" is the average time, don't care for your terrible reason as to why it's not. You can't get a more appropriate timescale than the average for your datacentre.

I don't really feel this post adds a lot of value to the discussion, but from what I take away is that you disagree on what is appropriate.

Average is not a very good metric to use, as that is the central point of this conversation. "The average is too weak" is the argument and the argument back is that people are near the average so it is ok. It makes very little sense.

That said, I think that having the system designed the way it is has resulted in both very poor play and a toxic community who speak in ways similar to your post. This in my opinion is a very large issue, and probably the largest issue facing the game. In close second are boring sub-stats, no horizontal progression, no talent trees or talent/skill builds, and horribly long grinds for the sake of having people play longer.

My playtime has dropped dramatically over the last year, where once I was playing close to 60 hours per week - and now I am playing 7 hours per week. This obviously is not necessarily representative of the entire community, but it certainly is representative of my enjoyment of the game, along with misunderstood expectations of the games direction.

In terms of the grading system, I don't like it. It's convoluted and would take a lot of coding for the devs, where they could simply allow addons and provide parser support. The community has their own capability to create societal norms and expectations.

Can I tell when the other dps isn't playing well? Yes ofc. Does it make me salty to a point I feel the need to segregate myselff? Not in the slightest. Also I advocate for anyone who wants to do this can do it voulentarily but they loose their roulettes as there is a purpose for them (to help newbies progress).

I see this was added after my initial response. I agree, I do not think segregation is an appropriate solution. It's far better to help those that need it than push them away into cliques. That is another reason I do not like this grading system. However, I do think there is a major problem that needs to be addressed, and I think the current method of addressing it is doing more harm than good.

How I see it is there are two sides, people who play well and/or put in a lot of dedication, and people who play less well and/or play casually. This causes a rift, as there are clear priority differences in why the people play. Naturally, this results in conflict. One solution is to provide things like a parser, which allows everyone to see how everyone is doing and may directly cause some people to harass players who play less well. Another solution is to prevent all discussion of DPS (like we have in FFXIV). However, this has resulted in a mindset that any effort is OK and anyone who wishes to have a higher dedication from their teammates is deemed an elitist. In other words, this also results in harassment (in the opposite direction). So in both situations you haev harassment, but in one you are more likely have the overall skill of the community improved. Outside of reversing who is being harassed, I am not sure what benefit blocking discussion regarding DPS is doing for the community.

To add on to this, I'd like to raise the question of where do we draw the line between harassment and creation of societal norms. Throughout history, in cultures across the globe, people have used peer pressure to create societal norms. These norms are enforced with further peer pressure to the point that nearly everyone abides. That is what allowing discussion of DPS can do. People can say things like "Our DPS is low.", "Your DPS should be higher". Naturally, some people will take this too far (just like people always take things to far), and it would need to be policed. I think that would result in a far better community than the one we have now.

[Underdog2204]

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Nothig toxic in what I said -

1) You are clearly salty over some extra few minutes in a dungeon to the point of segregation.
2) You seem to think spending en extra few minutes in a dungeon is the worst thing ever

Don't like being called out on it? Then don't do it, simple... Your "perception" is not evidence for the "community getting worse". There is something called confirmation bias... I remember when the vast majorty of peole had no idea what the hell they were doing (because the game was new) and now people are coming to join the party later than the rest of us you say they are a problem.

It's a terrible way to act towards people looking to get into the game. You find these newbies so beneath you that you decided that you arn't going to waste your time playing with them anymore. Roulettes are for helping newbies progress and filling up their queues not to suit you.

At least you see segregation as a terrible idea though so cudos there. A parser sounds like it would be all well and good but we all know how much good dps meters do for mmo communites. Ridicule, hate, flaming, elitism etc all becomes the norm. Not something I'm willing to agree to for a small improvement on some dungeon runs.

[thegreatonemal]

Again, it depends what you think is the appropriate time for the dungeon - not the average. The issue is that the average is longer than it should be. You cannot say "well most runs are fine because they are close to the average". That is completely obvious, that is sort of how statistics etc. work. The issue is that the average, and most players and runs, are quite slow due to people not performing adequately.

Then going by your example is 2 minutes longer than YOU think it should be doesn't not warrant changing the system because of the small minority of you believe you can save a minute or two because the system proposed will cause even more problems. So you have two options you eitehr run with our FC people only or accept the fact that no not all runs are going to be optimal some will take longer then others these runs are on average few and far between.

[Kaurie]

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I think I've said everything that is relevant to the discussion; however, I wanted to reply back and comment on our debate.

I'd recommend in future debates, you keep your language clear and mature and avoid using characterizations. They're simply offensive (and in this case quite incorrect) and serve very little productive purpose. I'd also leave out making so many assumptions. In our back and forth, despite only being a few posts, you made quite a number of incorrect assumptions about me, and then argued against those assumptions. It made debating with you quite frustrating. I'd focus on the points that I explicitly say, and not extended interpretations.

Then going by your example is 2 minutes longer than YOU think it should be doesn't not warrant changing the system because of the small minority of you believe you can save a minute or two because the system proposed will cause even more problems. So you have two options you eitehr run with our FC people only or accept the fact that no not all runs are going to be optimal some will take longer then others these runs are on average few and far between.

That is a fair point, and precisely why I said it depends on what you think is acceptable. However, that is 2 minutes longer on a 3 minute fight (or 10 minutes longer on a 15 minute dungeon run). The issue is that this greatly reduces the 'fun' factor in dungeons. When things take a long time, it feels like you are dragging your feet.

Perhaps an example would be, say you find it really fun to run. So you invite your 3 friends out to run, however, they tether a leash to you and then get down on all 4's and start crawling. This ruins your experience immensely. That is how it feels when a 15 minute run takes 25+ minutes. It's not that it is taking a long time, I have time to spare. It's that the actual experience is lessened. The time that you are in there is less fun. Instead of 15 minutes of fun, you get 25 minutes of not-fun.

In terms of your final point, I often do run with friends and we go through them quite quickly (back when I did roulettes). However, that isn't really what I am getting at here. I am not discussing for personal gain. I am discussing this point as I feel it is important for both the health of the game and the health of the community. As it is, both are at risk.

[Underdog2204]

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See you are saying that but yet you have not stated why they are inncorrect or even tried to correct the fact that the assumptions have been made based on what you have said in your posts. If you don't like thought of as such a person then don't put down you act like it. I even asked you what am I supposed to take away from choosing not to do roulettes due to them taking too long and the community getting worse but you have chosen not to answer.

Saying something is offensive and saying "incorrect" is not an argument... I'd be more than willing to state my thoughts on your actions are wrong but you yourself have chosen to potray yourself in such a way.

How is saying "dungeons taking a few minutes longer sometimes" is not relevent to the discussion? It's quite literally the only reason for you wanting change, saying those extra minutes isn't going to kill you is perfectly relevent.

You say it ruins fun? I say it doesn't because I'm proactive in that regard in my DF groups. I tell jokes, I make fun of people, blame bad smells on the healer etc. My DF runs are fun it's no-one elses fault yours arn't. The community has to fix itself, you cannot expect it to be fixed for you,