DPSing as a healer

[Alistaire]

Because this is the attitude that this game has come to foster. Not only do you need to DPS as a healer, your DPS is so vitally important even as the purest, main heal class it's time to sling insults if the manner in which you DPS disagrees with the sensibilities of the moral majority. Borg mentality about a role you shouldn't even be required to perform in the first place. I said it in another thread, the way this game has handled raid roles is nothing short of disgraceful. This thread is why I've completely abandoned playing as a healer. Because this community has made it abundantly clear it's not interested in healing even when playing as a healer.

These posts...you should really go look up what makes a good argument and what makes a bad one. Just google "rules of logic" or "logical fallacies".

[Zadocfish]

I don't get how people have a problem with DPSing as a healer... It's literally a choice between doing nothing and doing something constructive.

[SableLuna]

I main WHM and I was definitely not the best at dpsing and mp management. But if your tank is good on CD's and your dps don't eat unnecessary damage you should be able to dps effectively. You have shroud of saints and assize to help regen your mana back. But again, play the game how you want. If you want to dps and get better at that then just keep practicing ^_^ just make sure you have fun.

[_slowpoke_]

My perspective of when optimization begins is just a little different than yours, although ultimately it leads to a similar destination.

Uh, no, it doesn't. If we follow your line of argumentation, then not casting/attacking as much as possible would also not be required for DPS players and tanks, because it would be an optional "optimization", and not something that you'd expect as the very basis of adequate play. Healers do not get to stand around and claim it's an adequate way to play, because it's not.

Would your default instinct as a WHM to open up in Cleric Stance or be out of Cleric Stance?

You always open in Cleric and precast Aero III (or II, in older content). Always. There is no encounter in this game that I have done or that I know of where you can't at least put up all your DoTs before you need to heal, and since your tank should always go into a fight with at the very least a Stoneskin, and Adlo, and - in most cases - a pre-pull Regen, you don't need to worry about damage on them for the first few GCDs anyway.

Would your co-healer be in Cleric Stance or out of Cleric Stance?

I obviously expect my co-healer to also start every fight in Cleric, for the same reasons. There is simply no excuse not to start a fight pre-casting something to land on pull in organized group play.

Is it better to get healer DPS that early or be more conservative and let your group advance as far as possible?

These are not mutually exclusive, and yes, it's important to start with healer DPS early, because it affects CD timings, MP and GCD planning, and is most valuable during progression. You're not doing yourself (or your group, for that matter) a favor if you eschew trying to DPS at all just because you're still learning a fight. Looking for DPS windows and testing them (if necessary, out of Cleric) should be as natural a part of progression as trying to figure out pre-cast timings, damage patterns, CD planning, proactive movement, utility coordination, etc, because all of this goes hand in hand.

[Tsumes]

This case seems to be less about the effectiveness of a healer DPSing and more so on the fact that people can't stand seeing someone in the group standing around doing nothing. Which is fine. I guess. If that's your style of play. But you should in NO WAY. Try to FORCE your style of play on to someone else. Regardless of it's effectiveness.

Personally, I don't care if people get annoyed by my just standing there. My job is to keep the group alive, and I'm extremely good at it. If you're going to pay $15/mo to play a game. You shouldn't let someone else dictate how you should enjoy it.

Not Unrelated:
Reminds me of a similar case in another MMO where players expected healers to DPS. Eventually they stopped wanting healers entirely. New bosses were added that required healers. But due to the "healers aren't needed" tactic. They were literally non-existent. So players complained. Not even noticing or caring that they(the community) literally did it to themselves.

[FunkyBunch]

This case seems to be less about the effectiveness of a healer DPSing and more so on the fact that people can't stand seeing someone in the group standing around doing nothing. Which is fine. I guess. If that's your style of play. But you should in NO WAY. Try to FORCE your style of play on to someone else. Regardless of it's effectiveness.

Personally, I don't care if people get annoyed by my just standing there. My job is to keep the group alive, and I'm extremely good at it. If you're going to pay $15/mo to play a game. You shouldn't let someone else dictate how you should enjoy it.

We have one requirement: Be better than a bot, that's all we're asking. A bot can stand around and do nothing and still keep the group alive. Heck, EOS/Selene can do that in every dungeon. Be better than a faerie. According to you though, they're EXTREMELY good at their job.
TBH I'd rather have my chocobo than a healer who stands around for most of the fight making sure no one goes below 95% HP. At least my chocobo will DPS in between heals. Be better than a chocobo.

People just want you to play how your class was designed. Do the Hall of the Novice again. It specifically states to DPS when people don't need healing.

[_slowpoke_]

If you're going to pay $15/mo to play a game. You shouldn't let someone else dictate how you should enjoy it.

This is a horrible mentality in a cooperative multiplayer game, and you're an extremely selfish person if you think that's an argument in any way. Also, if we follow your argument to the logical conclusion, then the $45-$345 that the rest of the players you play with pay every month outweigh your $15, anyway. If you want to play however you want, please go play solo or, even better, play any of the countless offline singleplayer games out there.

[Tsumes]

This is a horrible mentality in a cooperative multiplayer game, and you're an extremely selfish person if you think that's an argument in any way.

I am selfish. I realized this decades ago. It's my life and no one's going to live it for me, even if they could.

I've been playing with my AST for the better part of 3 months now. In my very brief experience. It makes ZERO since to juggle cleric stance in the middle of an instance.
By the time I get through a single cast, the mob is either dead or down to the point where it makes little to no difference what so ever. If healers were meant to DPS they wouldn't have 2 different stats and a skill to dictate usefulness. You also wouldn't need an extra DPS class in the group. Why not just run with 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 DPS. Because apparently Healers are the new DPSes. Makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't ask a DPS to tank would you? No , doubt it. Why not? Because that's not his class. Why is it always different for healers?

Feel free to show me hard numbers that shows an AST in cleric stance doing damage that speeds up group progress and I'd gladly retract my statement. But casting just to make yourself look busy is more wasteful and useless then just standing there.

TLR. Unless you're dying. Don't tell the healer how to play his/her class.

[Taika]

Feel free to show me hard numbers that shows an AST in cleric stance doing damage that speeds up group progress and I'd gladly retract my statement.

It's not allowed to post parses on these forums but check FFlogs for healer parses and be amazed.

[FunkyBunch]

I am selfish. I realized this decades ago. It's my life and no one's going to live it for me, even if they could.

I've been playing with my AST for the better part of 3 months now. In my very brief experience. It makes ZERO since to juggle cleric stance in the middle of an instance.
By the time I get through a single cast, the mob is either dead or down to the point where it makes little to no difference what so ever. If healers were meant to DPS they wouldn't have 2 different stats and a skill to dictate usefulness. You also wouldn't need an extra DPS class in the group. Why not just run with 1 tank, 1 healer and 1 DPS. Because apparently Healers are the new DPSes. Makes a lot of sense. You wouldn't ask a DPS to tank would you? No , doubt it. Why not? Because that's not his class. Why is it always different for healers?

Feel free to show me hard numbers that shows an AST in cleric stance doing damage that speeds up group progress and I'd gladly retract my statement. But casting just to make yourself look busy is more wasteful and useless then just standing there.

Here:
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/C9Nyh...pe=damage-done
17:51
https://www.fflogs.com/reports/LFhyw...pe=damage-done
21:50

The healer in the first group contributed 368 more DPS and had an 18% shorter clear time.
The difference between the DPS+tank classes of both groups was only a total of 51.2 DPS (which if you transfer the healer DPS in the second group of 62.2 to a DPS to make them more even you have a perfect example of how a non-DPSing healer significantly increases clear time).

To explain another way, there's a 419 DPS difference between the groups and the first group had a 430 DPS healer. Yet they were able to perform 18% faster.
So to summarize, healing DPS make a big difference. Roughly 0.72 of an extra person. All other things being equal.