DPSing as a healer

[RiisWolf]

This is a strawman argument, because no one argues this. Stop using it. We're saying that you should minimize healing while maximizing time spent in Cleric Stance, because it's the only way to master the art of healing. You will never understand or even master the finer nuances of MP, GCD, and time management if you do not DPS as a healer, because it's unnecessary to do so if you don't, which leads us to your next point...

What part of priorities and supplementary do you NOT understand? If there is no need to heal then obviously something else would be the better thing to do, which is where the supplementary part comes in. Healing comes first. But clearly, with your line of thinking it's one or the other. DPS or nothing. Screw healing, screw everybody counting on me to keep the party alive and going, cause I gotta deal the damage, you say. Why are you a healer if you can't get that part straight??? Healing comes first, then everything else. Healing is number 1 on the list Slowpoke. It's so easy to understand. I wanted to be nice but you either don't know, read it wrong, dug in for some hidden message that just HAD to be there, or intentionally denying evidence and logic just to suit your own side of whatever it is you think you got going on there. Because SUDDENLY supplementary means optional and useless to you, and that because healing comes first that means you never get to DPS at all. Hey lets not use the cards since they're also supplementary. Who feeds you that garbage? Hardcore raiders? No wait, DPS?? Don't tell me -I had enough of the same answer.

And don't try that Hall of Novice with me again, even it says attack when you have time. Something I practically said with healing always comes first and fighting is purely supplementary, but again, NOOOOOOOO, you just have a problem with understanding a simple set of words and jump to extremes because of it. I fight too and you don't see me parading about pressuring new healers into fighting like it's Gordias Savage Week1 where even A1S to A4S so much baby damage that they can MAGICALLY get away with using stone 3 for a minute straight while the tank is in DPS stance the whole time when in reality its Sohr Khai.


Mechanics like Calcabrina's dolls are not healing specific because anyone can be targeted, Calcabrina does frequent unavoidable party wide damage, a damage dealer (unless dead or missing) is always at the healer's side, and targets must be destroyed and a simple medica 2 fixes the pulsing AoE damage as the healer/DPS/tank and tank/DPS/Healer free the DPS/Tank/healer. Great job listing something that's not geared toward anyone in particular, especially one where there's always a damage dealer or tank at your side.

That hummerlfaust only requires healer DPS like Gordias Savage only if your team is undergeared and/or sucks (as you said), like in the first few weeks of Gordias Savage because of the weekly locks, poorly rewarded items, and the very fact they drop 210 gear when the most anyone could have gotten was several pieces of 190s. The real zinger was that Gordias Savage was so overtuned. It was obvious. It was so bad that it was impossible for world's first PLD to win in the first few weeks. People since then have gotten a false sense of this DIRE need for healer DPS just because people in the first weeks needed it when without acknowledging that at first it was literally impossible without them. And just like before it's solution to your undergeared and/or underskilled team and quite possibly because of Midas is overtuned, for it to be required at all. Naturally there is always an exception.

A6S, Odin, anyone with a final attack or a moment that needs to be DPS'd as soon as possible refer to the first sentence. And if you think that this point contradicts the recent point, then you should have someone teach you what an exception is. You don't use a fallacy to prove your points.

The WoW comparison does matter because A) Some players are from that game B) this game's system is inspired by WoW (plus some things with the system still work the same), and C)despite promoting combat medics, none of the HEALER SPECIFIC mechanics require you to kill anything, just like in this game only that they don't promote combat medics.

Actually it does matter what the devs intend because they DESIGN the game. That is a fact; what you said there is false. Otherwise we wouldn't be limited by the constant weekly locks, grinds, designs that stumbles over itself, or even play hard ball with their stance on DPS healers which again, clearly they are against that. Otherwise players like you wouldn't be whining about the lack of accuracy and going to any end to get some, even if it means causing a DPS loss in certain jobs vs a single target just so you can inch it out more numbers. Just because you NOW have a customizable weapon again doesn't change the fact they were not intended to fight in raids at all, and more importantly you only CAN customize your gear with accuracy. Just because you have the option to go one way doesn't mean the devs will design your script based boss fights with healer DPS in mind.

And no, player skill is not defined by the meta. Player skill is defined by what's done and how efficient and most importantly EFFECTIVE it was in getting the job done, and in the end game THAT defines the meta! And yet even in the "content that matter" more people like you are around the corner to tell healers to use stone 3 over holy in a mob of 3 or more enemies -especially in a big pull- long before the boss fight as though every battle is like one of those Gordias Savage where it just babies you with only one enemy to strike most of the time (A2 being the only exception). It's amazing how slow everyone of those healers are at using LB3 when things are otherwise too far gone.

Also I'm bringing up Gordias Savage up in particular because it's in recent memory and it made everything about the meta worse, where again, we get stuck with more hubris, incompetent healers who not only inefficiently and/or ineffectively heal, they don't know how to do the DPS part right which is the same principle as DPS, all while the DPS and tanks can blame their inadequacies on the healer who is typically a white mage because they just had the most powerful in both damage and healing, and not the fact not enough tanks and/or DPS are properly geared and/or skilled to follow the script and/or to do their jobs.

And I meant what I said about "Where its DPS heavy meta changed the idea of a competent healer from one able to effortlessly keep the party alive to being a 24/7 DPS even if they don't do the DPS part right." . . . . even if they don't do the damage part right. I bet that's your idea of a good healer isn't it. Who cares if their meandering about with the attacks, if they sling a few, instantly they are the GOOD healer. No.

Good healers keep the party going, even at the face of things going horribly wrong. Bad healers are the ones who fail at what they think is trivial. Bad healers also don't know how to fight and heal, when their attacks are even simpler than an early Black Mage. Bad healers pretend everything is a perfect world until it suddenly falls apart. Good healers make it a perfect world. Good healers don't need to be told to use LB3 every single time. Great healers CRUSH the challenge in ANY field not just herp derp savage. Great healers not only keep the party going, but significantly boost run times but knowing perfectly well HOW TO FIGHT! None of this," hey look guys I can use stonez 3, I is greatest heals." Any idiot can do that.

This is too long. Bye.

[DynamoAce]

I think we can agree that in much of the past content that we find ourselves doing with our maxed out synced gear, most don't need to be healed as much allowing you much more time to DPS. However that seems to mainly be the case for those who have reached the latest content for their levels. To those who aren't quite there yet, they might be more healing focused. I'd say it's not terrible if they aren't DPSing for the majority of the time but I do agree it can be a problem if they're not DPSing at all. To those at their latest content managing to DPS majority of the time with fresh experience, props to them but I don't think everyone has the skills to adjust that quick. Effective runs like that can also vary depending on how well the rest of your team works. Sometimes some do get hit by silly things they shouldn't get hit by more than desired.

We can also all agree that Healing does take top priority, if everyone is nicely Healed and Buffed then you as a healer are good to go for DPSing until heals are required or when there are openings. For some healers, when they're new to dungeons/raids/etc. they might be a bit hesitant at first but I think its part of their learning to eventually adapt to when they have time to DPS.

EDIT: Another thing I'd like to add. Balance and being able to adjust to the situation at hand in my opinion is important. I think that adaption to situations is what really makes a great Healer.

[Yawnie]

You aren't required but generally most people find it to be a great help. When I first started off I (shamefully) thought "I'm a healer, I only need to heal."

When I first joined a static for savage progression I was met with the reality that my group needed that extra bit of DPS to progress further. We were pretty casual but I ended up quitting as I wasn't comfortable enough stance dancing. I ended up trying to dps in dungeons. It was scary at first but after time it was like second nature and I found myself wondering how I made it so far simply standing around and healing. By no means am I telling you that you HAVE to dps. Just try edging your way into it at your own pace; I think you'll find it pretty fun. Also, people will love you even more for making runs go faster

[Donjo]

What part of priorities and supplementary do you NOT understand? If there is no need to heal then obviously something else would be the better thing to do, which is where the supplementary part comes in. Healing comes first. But clearly, with your line of thinking it's one or the other. DPS or nothing. Screw healing, screw everybody counting on me to keep the party alive and going, cause I gotta deal the damage, you say. Why are you a healer if you can't get that part straight??? Healing comes first, then everything else. Healing is number 1 on the list Slowpoke.

I appreciate someone willing to write a detailed post... but it's really unfortunate when people answer another long post in ways that indicate a lack of understanding of what they're replying to. Take this quote, for example. Slowpoke quite clearly stated in his post that "Healing comes first, but fighting is not supplementary when healing currently isn't required". This isn't the statement you're arguing against here.

To show what he's saying:

1. You've specifically quoted his stating that your insinuation that "more and more healers are arguing that healing comes second" is a strawman argument. Because "no one argues this". If he really carried the opinions you've just railed against... wouldn't he have agreed with your point here?

2.

Heals always come first. Fighting is purely supplementary.

No healer who pushes for DPS will contest the first part. It's the second we vehemently disagree with...Fighting is not supplementary. It's part of our job...

Slowpoke's opinion here can't get any clearer than this. He is absolutely agreeing that "heals comes first" but disagreeing that "fighting is purely supplementary". These ideas are not mutually exclusive.

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Bonus Round

...or even play hard ball with their stance on DPS healers which again, clearly they are against that.

Take, for reference, that Cleric Stance was disabled in PvP for reasons resembling "Healers were too powerful in PvP because of it". Nothing quite indicates that the devs don't support a specific strategy than outright disabling the skill that enables it, right?

If they're so against Cleric Stance in PvE Party Based Content than they clearly must have disabled it instances by now - oh, wait. The truth is that Yoshida himself has acknowledged Healer DPS as a thing that is happening and is not against it.

[_slowpoke_]

Screw healing, screw everybody counting on me to keep the party alive and going, cause I gotta deal the damage, you say.

It seems you don't read what I write, because I said the exact opposite. "Minimizing healing" does not mean "screw healing", it means "heal as much as necessary, not more". How much "necessary" is obviously depends on the fight at hand and current situation, and this is true for any content, Savage or not.

Mechanics like Calcabrina's dolls are not healing specific because anyone can be targeted

Uh, in fact, Calcabrina will always target both DPS first, and healer/tank second for dolls, and all her other mechanics are on a fixed rotation. It's not random. Please actually understand mechanics before you try to use them in arguments.

Also, because I'm nice, I'm going to use Calcabrina to illustrate the "minimize healing" I talked about: As WHM with current gear (i220+), Calcabrina can be done with exactly 3 heals if you have enough DPS to skip second dolls (which even mediocre groups usually have at this point, especially combined with the up to 1k DPS you can push as a healer on this fight). You put up a Regen + E4E before she spawns, you Virus the first Knockout while in Cleric, you destroy the first set of dolls entirely on your own with a swiftcasted Holy into Assize, then you put up an Asylum for both the AoE damage and subsequent hits on the tank (which is the only time you usually need to leave Cleric during that phase), and then you use Benediction while in Cleric once appropriate (usually right before the second Knockout after the dolls). You leave Cleric exactly twice during this entire fight if everything goes fine, and even if it doesn't, it's usually nothing that a quick "Cleric off, Tetra, Cleric on" can't fix.

I'm not even going to bother to reply to the rest of your post, because it's nothing but angry ranting about things I haven't said, putting words in my mouth, and patently false things that show your lack of understanding about healing specifically and this game in general.

[Caitlyn]

If you have full mana all the time, you re playing your WHM totally wrong. I rather burn my Mana for some extra damage, instead of overhealing or just doing nothing.

Speaking of any Level 60 Dungeon, if you have at least an average tank, you have no excuse not doing extra damage as a healer. I m playing WHM by myself since it pisses me off because of this "I m not doing damage, because I m a healer"-attitude of nearly 90% of any healers out there.

You dont even need to heal very much in the entire dungeon, if you have good tank and DPS. SE lowered the accuarcy needed. SE give you offensive skills and cleric stance. Not doing some extra damage as healer is like not using your defensive buffs as a tank.

[AristocraticCorgi]

Playing the Palace of the Dead repeatedly as a SCH taught me all I needed to know about mastering the art of cleric stance and DPSing/healing for the benefit of the party.

[MaikoRaines]

As a WHM, I like healing, DPS, spammed commendations for being awesome and keeping my party alive. I've been flak'd on once for adding DPS to the fray of a 4 man PUG and that was by a tank who couldn't keep aggro to save our lives.

Medica 2 + Regen with occasional Asylum for boss fights // cleric stance, Aero 1, 2, 3 + Virus + Presence of mind + Stone 3 spam - I have 30 good DPSing seconds to make it count.
Watching timers fade.

Medica 2 + Regen - Mana check problem solving flowsheet:
Do I need Mana? (Y) Is the party low on life? (N) - Cast Shroud of Saints - Monitor HP, Cleric Stance, carry on DOTs and attack
Do I need Mana? (Y) Is the party low on life? (Y) - Cast Divine Seal - Cast Assize - Swiftcast - Cast Medica - Cast Shroud of Saints
Do I need Mana? (N) Is the party low on life? (N) - Refresh DOTs, continue to press attack for 20 seconds.

To the one person who said that if you're full on MP as a healer, you're doing something wrong. I beg to differ. I can keep my MP topped pretty high while being able to fill both roles with minimal issues to MP. Unless people are wiping around me left and right for some reason, there's room for flexibility - especially when you stagger out Assize and Shroud of Saints. I only use them both at the same time when it's becoming dire straights.

This is what goes on in my head when I hybrid my Healing/DPS role. it's different and everyone else has a different aspect of what a healer is. I am a fan of clearing out dailies in a hurry and being able to queue up for them. Every situation is different and I might not get to DPS as often or even at all. But when I do, it makes a world of difference to how quick a dungeon can be cleared. If there's room to do it, then do it. WHM DPS is pretty damn savage. You'd be a fool to waste the opportunity to show up dedicated DPS your WHM damage game.

[Megotaku]

The question I have on this topic is why is this game's community so absolutely fine with the total lack of playstyle diversity in this game? You can DPS. You can DPS and heal. You can DPS and tank. Someone pointed out that in the bleeding edge content with the world first people doing it undergeared, they were doing it with SCHs DPSing 90% of the time and WHMs DPSing 20% of the time. How is it the content is so painfully easy that undergeared in the hardest content this game has to offer any of the healers have a free moment to DPS?

I've even been told that there is an enormous gap in defenses between PLD and the other two tanks, but it's irrelevant because the content just isn't challenging enough for the sole job a tank is supposed to do (avoid damage) to matter. So WAR is OP... because DPS. Kind of a shame there's only one way to play in this game: DPS.

[Rongway]

The question I have on this topic is why is this game's community so absolutely fine with the total lack of playstyle diversity in this game?
...
Kind of a shame there's only one way to play in this game: DPS.

A healer with a respectable damage output makes the difference between a 25 minute dungeon run and a 15 minute run. This is huge. And for a healer to deny the party this advantage when the healer is totally capable of dealing that much damage without putting anyone at risk would be petty, lazy, or any of several other words that are decidedly not "respectable".