DPSing as a healer

[Valmaxian]

I do agree with the community in saying that you won't get 100% out of your class unless you are using your entire toolkit, and by at least trying to DPS you will be a more well-rounded and valued player.

[FunkyBunch]

I'm torn on this particular issue is because while I try to contribute to my groups as much as possible (including DPS), there are times when I won't - primarily when completing a raid for the first time. I always come prepared, but part of being comfortable going into CS is trust, and being as familiar as possible with the content - a challenge using DF. A lot of the DPS proponents here are highly experienced players who know the content extremely well. If I'm new to something, I'd be taking risks going into CS given the learning curve. This is a situation in which I would really want other players to be patient with me, and understand that my not adding much DPS is because I feel like taking that risk could potentially lead to party deaths, or at worst, a wipe. As soon as I feel like I understand the mechanics, I'll happily DPS. I personally experience significant stress when healing, but I love it - it just takes some time to get to "that" point comfort-wise.

As a DPS, and an aspiring healer, I'd rather a mistake DPSing than learning the fight before DPSing. Being comfortable is important, but being confident is equally important.
Whenever I go into a DF as a Healer I always say "I'm new to healing please bear with me" and I have NEVER EVER had anyone make a negative comment. I've had grumpy, angry players (none directed at me though) but as has been pointed out in other places, if you just tell them ahead of time, people are super open about giving you space. Even in Extreme Fights.
There's a reason for DPSing WHILE learning instead of Learn->DPS:
Learning to improvise a fight you don't know with your full toolkit makes you better able to respond to "OH S$!&" moments in future fights.

[_slowpoke_]

A lot of the DPS proponents here are highly experienced players who know the content extremely well.

Eh, not really. Outside of Extreme and Savage, I DPS heavily even in completely new content - you'll find me in Cleric even in dungeons that have been released an hour ago. I usually have enough buttons to press once damage actually starts happening to prevent people from dying, and even if they do, I'll know better next time - learning by failure is way better than learning by success.

I'd say it has less to do with familiarity with content and/or the people you happen to be grouped with and more to do with familiarity and confidence in your job. I can play both WHM and SCH (and to a lesser degree, AST, because I barely use it these days) in dungeons while half asleep and still push good damage, (way too) often more than DPS players.

[Fevelle]

learning by failure is way better than learning by success.

You're so arrogant in your arguments that you are even trying to say HOW people should learn a fight.

[Valmaxian]

I'd say it has less to do with familiarity with content and/or the people you happen to be grouped with and more to do with familiarity and confidence in your job.

Very reasonable. I might add that for some players, having confidence in themselves can be enough, while for others (like me), knowing the content gives that confidence. You did inspire me though - yesterday I took your advice in HB Hard and gave my (fantastic) WAR tank single HoTs, then allowed myself to DPS the rest of the time. It worked out brilliantly. It helped having a great tank, but it felt good fully trusting myself too.

@Gemina - I'm also a very anxious player, and your sentiments really resounded with me. How we approach other players is critical, especially when they are learning. For my part, I didn't even consider adding DPS as a healer until I saw another healer do it in a dungeon (it was like some kind of obvious epiphany). For me, the example was enough.

[Ceasaria]

I think the problem come from the idea that we have of the three roles : DPS role is to do damages ; Tank role is to block damages, protect people, charge on enemy ; and Healer role is to heal teammate.

Here in Eorzea, the fact to dps as healer is the debate.

The thing I want to know is why this question is not ask for the tank ?
That's right, tanks must avoid other party member to be attacked and should focus the attention of the enemy.
This could be like healer, tank could not do dps, except to keep the minimum aggro.

There is a difference here :
Tank is in front of the boss, healer is not.
Tank has a sword or an axe, healer has a book or a scepter.

I think it's like symbol which indicate the fact you can dps (who want to attack with a book ? ^^)
If you put only a shield in the hand of a tank, is he should attack too or not ?

One other thing is 'damage' is opposite to 'heal' somehow. So maybe it's not concevable for some healers to hurt even if it's monsters.

If the Red Mage is a healer, because he is in the front of the boss for both heal and dps and because he has a rapier, he should attack the boss, right ?

The message I want to transmit is because maybe of these symbols, people tends to think which role is appropriate to do things like dps.
If we could have this Red Mage for healer, then these people who are not for the idea that healer have the possibility to dps and etc., maybe they could see they are wrong or still.

But I want to say, when you are capable to see through this game and understand how it's work, then you know it's not about DPS, Tank and Healer. It's about to use all you have at your disposal to make to game easier, faster and be one with him

[FunkyBunch]

SNIP

The ROOT of the problem is that Healer is a misnomer in this game. This game was designed with "Healer" DPS in mind. (Case in point, Healer DPS was required for Gordias Clears, the Hall of the Novice Training, that Cleric Stance even exists at all)
Yes you are the only class that reliably heal and heal others.

But in this game each healer was designed as a Hybrid. It's the green box and the name "healer" that makes people think they don't need to do DPS.
In reality they should be called "Support" and have a yellow background. Then this whole issue would not even have arisen.

In the game, RIGHT NOW, the game SPECIFICALLY TELLS YOU to DPS when no one needs healing. That's the developers trying to fix the bad players. And yet we still have players arguing that they are good when doing WORSE THAN THE TUTORIAL tells you to do.

[KitomiSaitichi]

(a) There are players with varying levels of skill of gameplay, these being factors of knowledge, reflexes, timing and predictive capabilities and foresight

Knowledge lets you anticipate the mechanics and react proactively, whether it be applying a sleep / fluid uara to interrupt a mob, a stoneskin to mitigate AoE damage, or to do X, Y, Z mechanic

Judgement and Foresight lets you react appropriately when an unexpected situation arises, making the right decisions at the right time, such as a secondary mob coming to the current pack of mobs; do you sleep it, provoke and shield lob, stun - or if suddenly someone gets a spike critical - do you swiftcast resurrect or do you get ready to dodge the mechanic thats about to turn you into a rock; are your party members going to come closer to you or do they spread out when they take AoE damage. This changes what skills you use at what time.

Reflexes and Timing allows you to make the accurate fine motor movements necessary to press the right button at the right time, the tank might take 2 "ticks" of mobs hitting before they require a heal, a "spike-flat-spike-flat-flat-spike" pattern or whatever is conceptualized automatically when you become adjusted to healing

(b) The end-game goal is open-ended for all players
Nothing in this game requires you to do specifically one thing or another for enjoyment. Not all players care about the dungeon being 20% faster. Not all players need to know that you can save '1,695 gil in repairs' by leveling crafts. Not all players need to know 'A-B-C-X or Y' rotation does 16% more damage than 'A-B-D-C' rotation for X, Y, Z boss since they likely won't ever get to X, Y, Z boss.

(c) Optimal gameplay is not needed in all cases, only in those requiring performance-level gameplay, like dedicated raids.

(d) One should demonstrate some minimum level of consideration for others when playing with a random group.
When people are playing dungeons, they hopefully, and typically seek to clear the dungeon without too many wipes within a reasonable amount of time. Adapt to the needs to the group as long as the objective can be done; big pulls - more heals, small, manageable pulls - a little more proactiveness. In most cases for lower level content, a savings of 3 - 5 minutes can be expected on a 25 - 35 minute run. Most people don't usually notice this anyways as they are busy in a queue or AFK or doing something else while in game. No one is 100% efficient as a player in setting goals and completing those goals. Anyhow, horseplaying and pulling all the mobs or just simply not healing and not damaging mobs is a demonstration of showing no consideration for others towards completing said objective. If someone is at least healing, they are at least contributing. People who have this expectation of being down to the last second in dungeon savings to go on a 16-hour grind on a weekend are unrealistic and need to re-adjust their own expectations, and to see if they are themselves that 'optimally attuned' to achieving their goals - chances are they are not.

With all these factors in mind, at the end of the day, it is the player who decides whether he or she wants to improve his or her level of gameplay to spend less time idling and more time being proactive. Some people enjoy doing a concurrent analysis while playing, positioning of mobs, timing of cooldowns, the proper setup or contingency plan for when X, Y, Z member fails and whatnot - while many also do not. The average level of gameplay or skill that is needed in low level content is not a requirement to be optimal at all times. Players choosing to do group content do have objectives, but realistically, dungeons won't take 1 hours or more (2.5% percentile wise) when everyone is playing at said 'average skill level'. To this end, we don't need to encourage 'not playing at all - or being inconsiderate' nor do we need to make everyone 'optimal raid-master machines that systematically play at the 99.9% percentile level'.

If you can heal and DPS, and you want to be better, then do it.
If you can only heal, and don't have the aptitude or capacity to be better, then it's fine. Just don't expect to do harder content where the standards are higher.
If you see others that heal and DPS and no one is dead, great, they are doing better than average or perceived level of average skill.
If you see others only heal, and everyone is alive, good - they are doing what contributes to the objective of said dungeon, although there is room for improvement, if the player decides they want said improvement. If improvement is necessitated to clear said content, then help the player improve. If the player refuses to improve, great, you can remove them from the group.
If you see others only heal, and someone still dies, and it's not because they are new, and not because the party members decided to stand in orange AoE circles, then give them a few pointers.

Give someone the benefit of the doubt.

[FunkyBunch]

nor do we need to make everyone 'optimal raid-master machines that systematically play at the 99.9% percentile level'.

Literally no one is saying that ever.
You've literally missed the entire point.

All we have asked is to be at least as good as the Hall of the Bloody Novice is asking you to be. That is the minimum level for "average". Below that is terrible. End of story.

[_slowpoke_]

All we have asked is to be at least as good as the Hall of the Bloody Novice is asking you to be. That is the minimum level for "average". Below that is terrible. End of story.

This. All we're asking people is to be better than a computer controlled pet, because frickin' Selene can heal almost all dungeons in this game on her own provided the tank doesn't do massive pulls. If you're playing on the level of a fairy, you're being carried, there's really no other way to put it.