DPSing as a healer

[Gemina]

Look, this game is not going to force healers to heal all the time in casual content. Ever. If you want to heal all the time they have made content for that, go do it and stop asking them to change the way the healing jobs are set up and the balance of the game because you don't like it. There are plenty of games out there where you can be semi afk and spam heals every turn if that's what floats your boat. Ffxiv is not like that and will never be like that because the casual player can't handle it. So adjust and suck it up, or move along. In case you haven't noticed most healers enjoy this meta....

I think healers from both sides of this crazy fence enjoy how FFXIV healing is set up. The game provides some of the most versatile healers in any mmo I've played. Healing doesn't need to be made more difficult, current content doesn't need to change. What needs to change with the current healer meta are the attitudes.

Healer DPS is strong, and assuming the healer can handle both duties, it brings a great benefit to any group, and without question should be encouraged. DPS pushers, understand that this benefit is a luxury and until content is released that requires healer DPS to clear, healers should NOT be pressured or told to do it. And even more than that, they should not be made to feel like they are inadequate. Making people feel less than yourself is the very definition of bullying. Pushers please try to understand that there can be legitimate reasons why a healer does not enter Cleric and may not be due to laziness or selfishness. I'm not saying this doesn't exist, but the pushing isn't going to get you any closer to increasing the ratio of good/bad healers you group with. It is completely counter-productive.

Heals only healers. Always strive to improve your game. It should be a great incentive to know that if you can handle both duties, you're going to be a healer that groups only find by climbing to the top of the apple tree. You put yourself in contention to not just be a great healer, but an elite one. Try to see that not all DPS pushers are bullys, and some do so because they are well aware of the benefit of utilizing your entire tool kit. I think if you simply say, "I'm not too comfortable stance dancing, but I will try." You'll get patience and understanding from most, even if you do mess up. Messing up, is part of the learning process. That is a true fact.

I might be idealistic by saying that I think we can all get along, but I will continue to hope that the day comes that we do.

[_slowpoke_]

What needs to change with the current healer meta are the attitudes.

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

DPS pushers, understand that this benefit is a luxury and until content is released that requires healer DPS to clear, healers should NOT be pressured or told to do it

For the umpteenth time, the fact that healer DPS is not strictly and numerically required to beat bosses has nothing to do with this. Healers should absolutely be told to DPS. If they cannot handle DPSing and healing, they should either move on to another role or accept that they are a mediocre healer. Don't try to make sub-par play acceptable, we have enough bad players as it stands.

And even more than that, they should not be made to feel like they are inadequate.

But. They. Are. They are playing on a level of a DPS autoattacking, or a tank spamming Flash. That is literally what a heal-only healer is doing. The absolute, bare, minimum required contribution. That is the very definition of inadequate.

Making people feel less than yourself is the very definition of bullying.

By the twelve, no, it's not. By your definition, criticism is bullying. Stop trying to paint people who want and require more than the minimum contribution from people as "bullies". You're basically name-calling because you have no arguments.

Pushers please try to understand that there can be legitimate reasons why a healer does not enter Cleric and may not be due to laziness or selfishness.

There aren't, and you haven't even tried to provide any. Also, pretty much all other reasons people have provided here or elsewhere reduce to either or both of laziness and selfishness, including the unwillingness to improve.

It is completely counter-productive.

On the contrary, what you are doing is counter-productive. You are advocating sub-par playstyle as acceptable, or even "great". That's not gonna help anyone improve, because it allows people to sit comfortably on their minimum contribution thinking they are good players.

We need to call bad what is bad, and start with ourselves - that's how I begun as well once I realized healing in this game is different from all other similar games I've played so far. The first step to improvement is realizing you have to learn (and to keep this mindset, because there's always room to improve), and you're not gonna achieve this by telling people that they are being great and good healers when they are not.

You put yourself in contention to not just be a great healer, but an elite one.

The elite healers are those who maximize DPS in the hardest fights the game provides, not those who DPS at all, your definitions make no sense. Again, you cannot be a good or even "great" healer without utilizing Cleric and your offensive spells. Hell, you can't even properly learn to heal without DPSing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this and/or other threads.

I think if you simply say, "I'm not too comfortable stance dancing, but I will try." You'll get patience and understanding from most, even if you do mess up. Messing up, is part of the learning process. That is a true fact.

This is about the only thing in this entire post I will agree with. I will absolutely have patience and understanding for someone who actually tries, because that means they are willing to improve, instead of expecting the rest of the party to carry them. Willingness to improve is step 0 to becoming a good player. And yes, failure is crucial to learning, because continued success makes people complacent.

I might be idealistic by saying that I think we can all get along, but I will continue to hope that the day comes that we do.

As long as you keep up this nonsensical, argument-free defense of bad play in the name of not criticizing people for said play, no, we're not gonna get along. Please stop, you're not helping.

[Gemina]

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

Excuse me? I need you to point out where I say asking people to improve is bullying? Quote it. Bold it. I implicitly stated that if you are making other people feel less than yourself, THAT is bullying. But you're not asking other players to improve, are you? You're telling them to. You're requiring it. You're demanding it, and you come off as belligerent doing so. This is not ok. If you want to talk about being considerate of others, then I think you need to reflect on telling people what to do is poor etiquette and bad manners. This is something MOST people are taught as children.

For the umpteenth time, the fact that healer DPS is not strictly and numerically required to beat bosses has nothing to do with this. Healers should absolutely be told to DPS. If they cannot handle DPSing and healing, they should either move on to another role or accept that they are a mediocre healer. Don't try to make sub-par play acceptable, we have enough bad players as it stands.

It has EVERYTHING to do with this. Do you have such pomp that you feel what you say is law? The golden standard? Your issue is you feel healers than only heal are performing sub-par. It's really isn't complicated. The healing DPS contribution required to clear an instance is currently set at 0%. Anything greater than this number means the healer is doing more than what is required of them to complete an instance. If the DPS number is set at, let's say 70% and they indeed to put forward that 70%, they too are doing what is required of them. But let's say they are not, and their contribution is hovering 60%. This means the tank and/or the healer have to make up the loss. This means they are doing more than what is required. It means they are "carrying" the DPS members of their group assuming the DPS are deliberately entering instances with sub-par performances.

I get it, you feel players who only put forth exactly what is needed are mediocre at best, and that's fine. You want players to strive to be better than they were yesterday, and this too is perfectly ok. But to feel like you're carrying a healer through an instance because they don't DPS? That is utterly ridiculous.

But. They. Are. They are playing on a level of a DPS autoattacking, or a tank spamming Flash. That is literally what a heal-only healer is doing. The absolute, bare, minimum required contribution. That is the very definition of inadequate.

Read the last clause again. Then look up the definition of "adequate". Then also tell me how many times you failed to clear something because the healer didn't DPS. You really need to understand that YOUR requirements are not the same as the game's requirements to complete something. If you want to be Yoda, and coach up healers to perform to your standards, you are more than free to do so.

By the twelve, no, it's not. By your definition, criticism is bullying. Stop trying to paint people who want and require more than the minimum contribution from people as "bullies". You're basically name-calling because you have no arguments.

Again, I am pretty sure I made it clear what bullying is. Nothing wrong with criticism if it is constructive. Your criticism is anything but that. As for the arguments, in my last response to you, I tried to be nice and I tried to be civil. Yet, you continue to press on by quoting my statements. Why is this? Especially with a post that was clearly an attempt to bring some harmony among all of us no matter your view? It sure in hell isn't because I have no argument, or because they are weak. You defend not being a bully so strongly, even though I never called you one. Speaks tons dude.

There aren't, and you haven't even tried to provide any. Also, pretty much all other reasons people have provided here or elsewhere reduce to either or both of laziness and selfishness, including the unwillingness to improve.

I shouldn't have to provide any. Nor should any healer who is uncomfortable. Do you know this feeling? Being uncomfortable? It is NOT something you brush aside. What you likely consider the weakest of the these arguments is quite possibly the biggest reason why you shouldn't press the issue, and why I defend these players as much as I do. If someone says they are uncomfortable, it STOPS right there. THAT is what is called common courtesy. If that is not ok with you, boot the healer, get a new one and move on.

On the contrary, what you are doing is counter-productive. You are advocating sub-par playstyle as acceptable, or even "great". That's not gonna help anyone improve, because it allows people to sit comfortably on their minimum contribution thinking they are good players.

I never said the minimum contribution makes a healer great. Is this what you do to make a point? Reword things to shape them in your favor? And you tell me I don't have an argument? Have I not clearly stated I encourage healer DPS? The whole reason why I am here is because I am telling you that telling other players what to do is NOT ok.

The elite healers are those who maximize DPS in the hardest fights the game provides, not those who DPS at all, your definitions make no sense. Again, you cannot be a good or even "great" healer without utilizing Cleric and your offensive spells. Hell, you can't even properly learn to heal without DPSing, as I've pointed out multiple times in this and/or other threads.

Just love how you left out where I said good and great healers also DPS. Your arguments are literally getting weaker the more you make.

This is about the only thing in this entire post I will agree with. I will absolutely have patience and understanding for someone who actually tries, because that means they are willing to improve, instead of expecting the rest of the party to carry them. Willingness to improve is step 0 to becoming a good player. And yes, failure is crucial to learning, because continued success makes people complacent.

Bravo! You are capable of more than indifference. Apply that to your "criticism" and you just might garner success with improving the game play of others.

As long as you keep up this nonsensical, argument-free defense of bad play in the name of not criticizing people for said play, no, we're not gonna get along. Please stop, you're not helping.

I don't remember defending bad play. I only remember telling you that your definition of bad play is a crock of shit. G'day to you sir.

[Zadocfish]

Gemina,

I don't remember defending bad play.

You have to remember, in low-level instances, your party will only seldom need healing if your tank has any skill at all. This means you are defending players doing absolutely nothing, or worse, drawing aggro for no reason, while the rest of the group does stuff. That's bad play.

How's this for a compromise: Instead of just doing nothing if you don't want to DPS, just tell the tank at the beginning of the instance that you don't want to DPS, and that they should pull bigger to give you something to do. That way, you can spend more time healing and not have to worry about doing something that you don't want to do. If the tank agrees, anyways.

[_slowpoke_]

~angry, argument free ranting~

Ok, you just proved my point. Come back when you actually have arguments instead of name-calling (you're doing the very thing you accuse me of doing, btw), I'm not gonna bother replying to you anymore.

[Fernosaur]

Yep, the attitude needs to change that striving for improvement of yourself and others and being required to do more than the absolute minimum is "bullying", like you try to say it is. This is part of the reason people in this game are so bad. Nothing requires them to improve by design. There's no real difficulty curve. So now we, the players, should also stop requiring improvement? How about no?

I'm quoting this old post because I think it's the best example of the kind of discussion that usually happens in this kinda thread.

Dude, we're on the same side, but I kind of agree with Gemina about the attitude thing. I think the whole discussion you two are having is stemming from both of you greatly overreacting to each other's arguments and taking them to an imaginary extreme. You're saying she defends bad players and calls them great, even if they're not, and she probably imagines you flaming everyone who isn't in Cleric Stance 80% of the time.

To make this clear, BOTH of these attitudes are bad. Flaming people for not conforming to the meta doesn't help them, it only probably makes them either angry or miserable, and that kind of encounter with strangers hardly ever leads to any productive learning. I agree that you won't help people get better unless you point out what they do wrong, but there is a little something called TACT, and there are also some people who are SUPER sensitive about this kinda thing, and it will really ruin their day. You say that not pointing these things out encourages bad play, and hell, maybe it does to a certain extent, but the game doesn't need everyone in the world to have an above average level of skill. That's why being good in a game is usually called "above average." Sure, you might run into these people, and sure, it may be annoying, but the content you'll likely play with them isn't as punishing for it to matter that much, so there's really no need to make a big deal out of non-DPS healers not wishing to push the limits of their skill.

[Atoli]

Personally, I think it's more interesting and fun to have to heal AND dps vs just 100% healing uptime anyways.
Even when I have to heal all the time, it's just that, casting healing spell after healing spell with a bit of helpful skills sprinkled over it.
Nothing I have to really balance, or strategize about. No big drawbacks.

But every time I enter CS, I make a decision. Is it worth it? Can I risk it? How long can I keep this up? Which skills should I have on hand, how much dmg do the opponents do per enemy GCD, so I know when to switch back?
The amount of "healer-thinking" is so much more than if I could just brainlessly spam heal, heal, heal all the time.

That said, I really enjoy it when normal content has a bit more healing requirements than the current average. Like Weeping City, for example
Definitely requires more (and more aware) healing than other non-savage content while still allowing for the freedom to not JUST heal fulltime.

[Yona87]

Personally, I think it's more interesting and fun to have to heal AND dps vs just 100% healing uptime anyways.
Even when I have to heal all the time, it's just that, casting healing spell after healing spell with a bit of helpful skills sprinkled over it.
Nothing I have to really balance, or strategize about. No big drawbacks.

But every time I enter CS, I make a decision. Is it worth it? Can I risk it? How long can I keep this up? Which skills should I have on hand, how much dmg do the opponents do per enemy GCD, so I know when to switch back?
The amount of "healer-thinking" is so much more than if I could just brainlessly spam heal, heal, heal all the time.

This.
Gameplay is much more fun and challenging when you are weaving dmg in between heals.

[RopeDrink]

Agree with _Slowpoke_

I've no intention of competing for 'most elite Healer' but I certainly don't want to sit around bored, fulfilling base requirements and AFK'ing when they're met. There is always something I can do when not 'healing' to make peoples life easier. However, I found it ironic that it is when I'm doing more than is required of a Healer that people start actually flaming. Being told not to do damage, not to CC, not to knock stray mobs back to the tank made my day, because it says to me that said person honestly expects mediocrity to cover the fact that their ability to hold aggro was utterly abysmal - and it was easier for them to blame everyone else than to accept that they themselves had things to improve on. People going the extra mile can make life easier for everyone - it's not a 'requirement', it is simply beneficial ie. no reason not to do it other than laziness.

[Valmaxian]

I'm torn on this particular issue is because while I try to contribute to my groups as much as possible (including DPS), there are times when I won't - primarily when completing a raid for the first time. I always come prepared, but part of being comfortable going into CS is trust, and being as familiar as possible with the content - a challenge using DF. A lot of the DPS proponents here are highly experienced players who know the content extremely well. If I'm new to something, I'd be taking risks going into CS given the learning curve. This is a situation in which I would really want other players to be patient with me, and understand that my not adding much DPS is because I feel like taking that risk could potentially lead to party deaths, or at worst, a wipe. As soon as I feel like I understand the mechanics, I'll happily DPS. I personally experience significant stress when healing, but I love it - it just takes some time to get to "that" point comfort-wise.