Incoming nerfs/changes

[KayVonTrarx]

The drop in points makes Ice & Base points more important which make Shatter less PVP focused. I've been frustrated because even now, trying to direct people to focus on the PVE aspect pisses off the kill-focused people in the team. That's not their fault either because we're here to fight people not ice.

Trying to reconcile PVE to win versus PVP to stop the leading GC is difficult. Small ice is popping up every minute pulling people away from the core group or bases are getting stolen. I've made bad or ineffective calls as Shatter is much harder to coordinate. Pretty much resolved to not call until I'm more experienced in it.

In Seal Rock, getting an objective meant killing people. It was perfect for both people wanting kills and people wanting to win.

Teamfights are the fun part of PVP & Shatter just doesn't encourage them. Unless you have an overwhelming skill advantage over the others like the GC stacking going on with transfers but that's not the fault of Shatter.

[Thekk]

The drop in points makes Ice & Base points more important which make Shatter less PVP focused. I've been frustrated because even now, trying to direct people to focus on the PVE aspect pisses off the kill-focused people in the team. That's not their fault either because we're here to fight people not ice.

Going to reuse the numbers I posted in another thread.

The points available on the maps are the following:

• 4 large crystals (300) and 18 small crystals (70), for a total of 2460 or an average of 820 per company
• 2 points per 3 seconds of outpost control (or 40 per minute)
• An overall increase of 5 points per kill (+10 for a company, -5 for another)

There are multiple crystal spawn patterns, but the most common ones have the last crystals spawning at either 8:00 or 10:00. If they take 2 minutes to kill, then the match will be 12 to 14 minutes old when it happens. That would give a company around 560 points in the best case (14 mins and no control change)

Currently, that gives us the following breakdown:

• Crystals : 820/1800 = 45,6%
• Outposts : 560/1800 = 31,1%
• Kills : 420/1800 (requires 84 kills/death) = 23,3%

The thing is this is only if the match ends with the last crystal. In reality, that's rarely the case and the result is that outposts generate more points and kills less. If the game lasts the whole 20 minutes, the spread is going to be closer to 45/45/10. Games that last that long usually do because there's not much fighting going on and that is reflected.

With the 1600 limit, the numbers are now:

• Crystals : 820/1600 = 51,2%
• Outposts : 560/1600 = 35%
• Kills : 220/1600 (requires 44 kills/deaths) = 13,8%

With this limit, it is very unlikely that the match will ever last 20 minutes as the potential crystal (820) and outpost (800) points bring us over it. If the objective is to make matches end nearly after the last crystal is destroyed, then it's one way to achieve it. However, the spreads clearly show that PvP which already has a marginal part in the total end score is going to matter even less. You could very will win with very minimal fighting, which wasn't possible before and it feels like that misses the point.

In my opinion, a better option would have been to increase the overall points gained from a kill to 10. The result of that would be to reduce the number of kills/deaths needed to 42 (about the same as what will be needed after the change) without increasing the overall importance of crystals, which is already pretty high (some would argue too high). That also makes it more enticing to engage other teams instead of hiding in a corner until the next crystal spawns.

Currently it doesn't feel like it's even worth it trying to attack someone at a crystal because they'll generate more points in the time it takes you to kill them than you will killing them.

All this might boils down to cultural differences between NA/EU and Japan. I remember someone saying that our Seal Rock matches were bloodbaths compared to theirs. This change caters to that mindset and clashes with ours.

[KayVonTrarx]

Currently it doesn't feel like it's even worth it trying to attack someone at a crystal because they'll generate more points in the time it takes you to kill them than you will killing them.

All this might boils down to cultural differences between NA/EU and Japan. I remember someone saying that our Seal Rock matches were bloodbaths compared to theirs. This change caters to that mindset and clashes with ours.

I've heard their PVP scene had much more people but didn't know about the playstyle differences. I wonder what they've been saying about Shatter over on their forums.

It might be a cultural thing but I hate having to choose defensive playstyles to win. I've been criticized for being overly non-confrontational in calls but can't find it in myself to argue in alliance chat to prove exactly what you've showed with the math. Not PVPing wins matches in Shatter.

[Thekk]

Well the thing is that right now you do have to fight at some point or you won't get enough points so you either try to get as many kills as you can between the large crystal spawns or end up having to fight at the end, often ending in a 1v2 if you are in the lead. With the change, just the kills you get left and right will be enough and it will allow for an even more defensive strategy.

One problem is that you have to choose between attacking the crystal or attacking the enemy, with the first option netting a lot more points. It is very unlikely you will wipe a team in the amount of time it takes to destroy a crystal. At most, you will kill half the group and even that is generous. In that case, you would get 120 points and they would get 240 (300 - 60). You would need to kill 20/24 to break even. If kills were changed to +20/-10, it would take 10 to break even. That might encourage people to contest.

In contrast to Shatter, Seal Rock required you to fight over the objective to have a chance at capture. We went from having to both fight and achieve objectives to fight or achieve objectives and that's not a very healthy situation in my opinion.

* Just a disclaimer that I started playing late and have very limited experience with the Cartenau Frontlines (a few odd 24 man matches from roulette) so I can't really comment on how they compare to the current situation.
However, from what I've seen, the large nodes actually did considerable damage to the players which would open up opportunities for kills. That kind of risk is absent from Shatter. The addition of a damage reflect from the crystal which has been mentioned in one thread could be a nice way to spice things up if it applied to everyone.

[ShaluaLie]

bring back seal rock Please.

[Zensho]

bring back seal rock Please.

I remember when Seal Rock first came out people were like "bring back slaughter please".

and when Slaughter first came out, people were like "bring back seize please".

hmmm, I can see a pattern here

[Dimitrii]

I remember when Seal Rock first came out people were like "bring back slaughter please".

and when Slaughter first came out, people were like "bring back seize please".

hmmm, I can see a pattern here

Definitely heard and read the bring back secure chants when slaughter came out but who actually wanted slaughter brought back when seize came out lol?

[Zensho]

Definitely heard and read the bring back secure chants when slaughter came out but who actually wanted slaughter brought back when seize came out lol?

oh yeah, I knew I was missing one in the chain, forgot about secure haha XD

wish they would just make one huge random duty rouluette single solo que, and no GC, and same rewards across the board, that would jumpstart PVP

[Ultimatecalibur]

I think a lot of people are not getting why Caster DpS is getting nerfed but not all ranged. This is because Bard and Machinist DpS is already nerfed at ranges beyond 15y (and within 15y if GB/WM is not activated). Only Blackmages and Summoners were doing to much damage from a safe distance.

[kisada]

for as many reasonable things that i used to post in my attempts to convey reason and common sense changes, i've probably posted just as many, if not more, snarky/sarcastic/critical things about the devs. maybe some of it unfair, though i would contend some of it fair.

so i can understand if i'm completely ignored by the devs. and if i'm not i'd like to at least say this: whatever direction this game's pvp is going is not looking good. there are many people who are very unhappy with it all and it's not getting better. i understand that the commitment devs can make toward such a niche category of the game is limited but whatever is currently going on is just not good enough. pvp needs to go on a different track, with different goals and different intentions.