Players Who Don't pull their weight.

[Deceptistar]

There are times like what the OP says,

tho regarding taking the advice probably goes both ways.
I've seen people sound pushy as hell and like complete a-holes.
If they are neglecting to take advice properly, then you can say that there are always people that are neglecting to be courteous in giving said advice too, especially when they want the advice taken.

i try to be usually more subtle about advice, most pple tend to take it better when you offer them in ways that are more like:
"it might work better if...."
"when my friend runs this, they say its easier if you...."

[Sipherous]

I was just in Weeping City with you. MT died on the 2nd boss due to Hell Wind, and I had aggro on the boss for roughly 20 seconds before dying from no heals. Tell me why in that entire time you couldn't pull hate off/cover a not even full geared monk that was barely getting any positionals due to face tanking, nor having any cds up.

Lotta reason and is more like 10 sec at most but enough to slaughter u since u probably had less than 1k and out heals were pretty slow.

If someone wishes to MT Imma do DPS, which means Sword oath, at the time of the poor WAR's death I finsihed my combo, no enimity generation in Sword oath for at least a GCD, I wasnt anywhere near the hate list which mean I need shield oath, another GCD on top of that the time it takes to provoke and deal the nessessary dmg to keep hate requires minimum 5sec. As for cover my priority was getting aggro not saving you from a simple auto attack which a healer coulda kept you up for at least 2-3 GCD's. If you died I'm sry but my priority was reestablishing aggro and position not protecting someone. Had I protected you I would of needed 2-3 sec to figure out which charcter boss was attacking select them cover and switch back. Cover macros are terrible to use and dont always work due to macros not allowed to be qued up in a rotation.

[Aarik]

From what I've read on this thread, the (reasonable) general objection to the OP's argument is that we do not, and cannot know the situation of the other players, or the reason behind their poor play. This is true. However, this does not magically make this complete lack of ability/willingness/care something to encourage. Do not fall into the fallacy of "we play this game to get away from life!". As soon as you play with other people you do not know, 'life' has been introduced to the game, along with it's expectations. If you play solely with your friends (who share your mindset) or just solo, then yes, you can 'escape' with this game. That is the sole exception.

I've seen the argument tossed around on this thread "It's a game and they pay just like everyone else; let them play how they want." Let me pose a scenario to you, with the same premise. In this scenario everyone is going to play paintball at a course. Everyone pays to enter and play. Yet there are rules to follow; if you're shot, you're out. If you ignore this and continue to play under the premise "I paid just like everyone else, so I can play how I want", chances are you will be kicked from the game. If you continue to do this, you may well be ejected from the course permanently. The point is that yes, while you do pay just like everyone else, there are rules, spoken and unspoken, that are in play whenever you play with others. If you are playing solo, you can do whatever you want, but as soon as others are introduced, this idea falls flat.

Another argument I've seen is that some people simply cannot play effectively due to mental or physical ailments. This is true, yet the unfortunate truth is, you cannot cater to everyone; sorry if you don't like to hear this (I don't like saying it) but this is a fact of life. Catering to the lowest possible denominator means you are screwing over the vast majority for the few. This has been done several times in real-life scenarios, and every single time it has failed spectacularly. A perfect example of this would be the "No Child Left Behind Act". For those who are not familiar with this, this was an act passed by the United States Congress; the premise and purpose of this act was to close the achievement gap in school children via standardized testing. With this act, public school funding was dependent upon the percentage of students who passed this standardized testing; the more that passed, the better your funding...and vice-versa. This was an act that catered and was aimed at the 'lowest-denominator' in schools; aka the children with the worst grades. A lofty and noble cause. It was also an incredibly naive one; schools almost universally focused upon the curriculum of these standardized tests, neglecting all else. Students who were above average, and even those who were average, suddenly found themselves....bored. Unchallenged. Interestingly enough, if you look up the statistics for child ADD, you'll find that cases for this suddenly skyrocketed after the implementation. A child locked in a room having the teacher drone on about subjects they've already been over because one or two did not understand (or didn't care)....gee I wonder why they got antsy. Needless to say, the act was a massive failure, and has since been delegated to the individual states on how they would implement it.

The point here is simple; while wanting to make content that appeals to everyone by making it so that even the most disabled can play is a nice concept, it is quite simply not a realistic one; by doing so you alienate most others. Is it fair? No. Is it nice? No. Have we found a way to make everyone happy, even the fringes? No. Growing up I wanted to be a fighter pilot; friggin looked forward to it. 18 and I went to the Air Force recruiter and told him just that. The recruiter looked up, saw that I was very tall (6' 4") and simply said "Sorry kid, you're too tall. You wouldn't fit in the cockpit even if you did get into the program." And that was it. Was it through no fault of my own? Nope. But that didn't mean I'd sit there and demand that they made those cockpits bigger so they could cater to my wants. Which is essentially what people are arguing for here. Quite frankly, unless you can show me that a large majority of the playerbase of this game are all physically/mentally disable to a high extent, then this idea is logically unsound. I wish it did work like that. But it doesn't; that's life, and this is an MMO.

[Chiramu]

I agree with Aarik, as soon as you start to play with other people you need to start being thoughtful of others. Not everyone in the MMORPG will have your sense of humour or your sense of fun. Some people have fun by testing themselves by always playing as hard as they can; while others just like to bum around a joke about everything.

Treat others how they would expect to be treated. I learned that in Primary school, it's a shame not more people follow that.

[MaeIsMean]

I agree with Aarik, as soon as you start to play with other people you need to start being thoughtful of others. Not everyone in the MMORPG will have your sense of humour or your sense of fun. Some people have fun by testing themselves by always playing as hard as they can; while others just like to bum around a joke about everything.

Right, it's a two way street. Don't be a douche to someone because they aren't doing as well as you'd like. But don't be a lazy sod who can't bring yourself to do more than mash 1 2 3 (if even that). And also, don't assume the reasons that people behave like they do. Maybe someone left a dungeon with a "bad" in it because they only had a short time before they had to log, and in other circumstances would have stuck it out. Maybe someone is performing badly because their kid just ran up with a bloody mouth because his tooth "fell out" (with his help lol). Just live and let live.

[Seraphix2407]

Treat others how they would expect to be treated. I learned that in Primary school, it's a shame not more people follow that.

This pretty much. Like I said, I don't mind spending time helping people or do whatever they find fun in the game, I'm willing to try. Many people on my server can vouch for it easily, besides, I tolerate if people aren't the best, because they don't have to. But if they try really good, they get my respect, however if they are there unwilling to get better,especially in a bad way, I would never give them my respect. First of all I'm there to help and it's my time I'm using to help them. Show me respect by trying your best, because if you don't you kinda do waste my time. It's like my friends ask me and my fc to help them for clears since they know fight, once we go inside they die 24-7, this is where I put my foot down and say they have to train to get better. When they do get better, with or without my help, I'll go in there again

[Cakekizyy]

Paintball analogy doesn't fit IMO. You're talking about breaking rules of game (SE's rules), while the thread is more about the social contract among players which you can't really enforce besides kicking and blacklisting.

[Aarik]

Paintball analogy doesn't fit IMO. You're talking about breaking rules of game (SE's rules), while the thread is more about the social contract among players which you can't really enforce besides kicking and blacklisting.

The analogy does fit, but I'll add onto it to make it more clear; some paintball courses do not have actual rules set by the business other than ones for people's safety (I've been to a few). In these, the players are the ones to make the rules for each situation, and they are also the ones to enforce them (within the safe-rules set by the establishment). Once again, you can choose not to follow the rules, but you do so understanding that the other players may not put up with it. I've only seen some dude deliberately ignore the rules once; he was called out by several people and continued to ignore them. The result; everyone turned on him and turned his torso into a rainbow until he called out. So once again, yes you can ignore the rules, but you run the risk of consequences by doing so.

[Alistaire]

1) You can vote kick them and fail at it while being kicked yourself = punishment.

Had this happen and I can definitely say it's not punishment. Often you find bad players in groups (birds of a feather etc) and I've called someone out on absolutely abysmal performance, rotation etc. Only to find out the others queued with them. So I get kicked, requeue, and finish the roulette faster than they probably did, and often with much less headache. That's a win in my book.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

...
or that some people have 10 thumbs when holding a hammer.
...

Ten thumbs?!

Which one am I supposed to squish?