What are the best Secondaries for SCH DPS?

[Kerrigen]

FWIW Dervy mentioned on Reddit not too long ago that SpS would likely be higher than Det for WHM DPS because ~70% of their DPS is made of Damage over Time so I can't see it being much different for SCH, especially when you factor in the unique Crit/SpS interaction we get from Enhanced Pet Actions. The difference must be absolutely miniscule though if it's being argued back and forth.

3.4 and the final ilv cap for this expansion will very likely see SpS take over Det by a larger margin simply because it scales better.

I still would like to see serious testing from more than one source for the sake of not having to rely on a single source as gospel. I'd do it myself but it's so time-consuming...

[Alistaire]

Single source is fine long as it's thorough. The math isn't hard, it's just a matter of putting it all together.

And we're getting off track (ish) saying that about whm dps, the thread intent was SCH specifically. And the only point to making distinctions is to see which gear is better and what to meld, which becomes acc > crit > no room for anything else.

But yeah after seeing those guy's #s coming from the same source as the original stat weights they're based on makes the whole thing a lot more credible. Speed > det for sch. Whm too. Ast may be different especially if they stick to their guaranteed acc actions. Even as SCH you could do that and not go for acc at all, though OP clearly stated he wasn't going that route.

[Kerrigen]

I don't agree that taking WHM as a reference when it comes to damage over time and stat weights is getting off-track(ish).

SCH relies on Damage over Time even moreso than WHM so I really doubt their stat weights would be radically different, and Dervy never mentioned SCH, so you need to go with what little info you have, eh?

I do agree that there's very little choice to be made as it's going to be accuracy > crit > choose your boots (do I really want to spend a twine and Lore when I have Midan boots).

[Alistaire]

The thing is even a SMN who weighs DET higher than a SCH would wouldn't choose those det boots over the speed ones with 20~ more speed and no other offensive secondaries on either.

[Kerrigen]

My point was more "do I really want to spend 495 lore and a twine for a slot that is filled with something that's perfectly serviceable", but yeah you're right. It's hardly going to make a difference anyway (especially with PIE being harder to value - I'd personally value PIE more for progression but this is getting off-track so I'll just stop here).

[Judge_Xero]

+

Edit: and it turns out Xero guy here actually got those numbers from Dervy, which idk why you wouldn't just say so, makes a lot more sense to say "I got these from the guy who started the math" rather than "I took some other guy's numbers and tweaked em myself!"

Well I wanted to start a discussion on what people's thoughts were. Or if everyone would just regurgitate the whole crt>det>SS idea.
I also didn't want to link directly to Dervy's work since I'm not sure exactly why he was Forum banned. But I'm sure it was obvious where it was from as they are the most well known.

Oh wow that's bad. Those stat weights are the result after figuring all those things in, that's how they get how important each one is (and in SMN's case why there's a subtle difference if you auto-attack with your book "book-smacking"). So you're basically saying 2+2 =4 but then hitting enter on a calculator one too many times and getting 6.

Please elaborate on this. I understand that the weights are made up using the stat contribution of an entire build, focusing on the highest possible stat values for each. Which it has to since while DET is a linear change while SS and CRT are both exponential, as well as some values change simply due to higher MD/AP and INT

I didn't base my thoughts on SS off converting the SMN weights to work with SCH either. I only used that as an example, and since secondary stats have similar contribution based on WD/Potency/Attack Power it was plausible to cross-reference the values to SMN and then cut down it's toolkit to SCH level as a direct comparison, since SMN's further toolkit does not offer anything that would greatly alter the effect of those secondary stats. i.e. Guaranteed Crit, or proc system. That and as far as gear progression SMN and SCH can stack very close to the same values of secondary stats, or at least within the same range.

i.e. SCH CRT 850, SS 750. SMN CRT 1000, SS 750

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It is true there isn't really a whole lot you can do given the current gear as even with building for SS/CRT you are going to have a value of CRT higher than SS and very little choice between DET/SS, but overall I figured it would be a fun discussion.

[Judge_Xero]

Did some quick testing just to give a better idea of the relation of the secondaries.

Just set my gear so I had a total of 684 Spell Speed (+330)

Got a baseline Potency/Damage Value for Broil by doing about a 1000 casts to get the min/max. Broil 1783 - 1972. With a Median of 1877 or 11.044 Damage/Potency.

Bio with the same gear - BIO 437 - 483 -> 460 Median -> 11.5 Damage/Potency

4% Extra Damage/Potency

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Broil - 1433 - 1584 - Median 1508.5 -> 8.8735 Damage/Potency

Bio 351 - 388 - 369.5 -> 9.2375

Another test with +0 DET, same SS Value + 330 -> 4%

So SCH with the 90% Damage effected by SS + 10% ED and 40% DOT damage.

3.5% from extra Broil casts, and 1.6% from extra DOT damage. (4% X 0.4) -> Total 5.1%

It would require enough CRT to reach 13.75% or 375 CRT VS the 330 of SS to reach the same value.

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+660 CRT 20.4% (60.4 Multi) 10% Damage Average Increase.
+660 SPD +8% DOT Damage + 7.2% from extra Broils -> (8% X 0.4) + 7.2 = 10.4

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So just about 690 CRT to hit the same 10.4% value, so the gap does close. (Due to CRT's much higher gains per point, it just starts out lower)

How is DET @ that value? Somewhere around 8.6%

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Unless anyone has other information to supply, I'm fairly certain that SS>CRT>DET for purely DPS purposes on SCH up until you hit both a CRT and SS value of ~1000 at which point the combination of Enhanced Pet and the SS Value will make CRT worth the same.

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How much does it matter? Well the loss of pet heals could amount to ~150 HP per Embrace from not stacking DET instead. Since you will be stacking CRT and SS anyway, that should be the only thing to consider.

[Fernosaur]

On the topic of numbers I don't fully understand... A question has been nagging me for a while. I see a lot of people repeating that Critical offers diminishing returns, but as much as I've tried looking for more in-depth info on this I haven't really hit the nail yet. Could anyone do me a favor and explain to me how the gains from Crit offer diminishing returns?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

On the topic of numbers I don't fully understand... A question has been nagging me for a while. I see a lot of people repeating that Critical offers diminishing returns, but as much as I've tried looking for more in-depth info on this I haven't really hit the nail yet. Could anyone do me a favor and explain to me how the gains from Crit offer diminishing returns?

It's old information. Before it has diminishing value. It's different from diminishing returns. For example:
If you have 5% chance to crit and get another 5%, your amount of crits would double in number (+100% amount of crits)
But if you have 10% chance to crit and get another 5%, you only get half the value out of the same 5% (+50% amount of crits)

This effectively would result in diminishing value. But as of 3.0 you also get +1% crit value for each 1% crit chance you gain. This (nearly) completely negates whatever diminishing value crit had before.

[Fernosaur]

Aaah, okay. I think that makes sense. I had seen the whole diminishing returns thing get thrown around in various different threads and I never knew what it really meant.