Dragoon pet

[Efrye]

Or, people would rather have a single source of their damage as their main input, as per the majority of the Job's history. Rather than have to worry about SE balancing a secondary source of damage against it.

There doesn't have to be any additional balancing at all. You could just take the damage a normal hit would do, take away 10% and add it to the pet. Sure, that would make the wyvern a mostly visual component, but that's perfectly fine with me. And I suppose many of those who are in favor of a pet would agree. Either way there are always other elements you could add on top of that.

Again, it's just the XI thinking that puts you off!

[Hyrist]

There doesn't have to be any additional balancing at all. You could just take the damage a normal hit would do, take away 10% and add it to the pet. Sure, that would make the wyvern a mostly visual component, but that's perfectly fine with me. And I suppose many of those who are in favor of a pet would agree. Either way there are always other elements you could add on top of that.

Again, it's just the XI thinking that puts you off!

No really, it's not. Again, you claim I have a limited understanding of math, but you are the one looking at this from an overly simplistic standpoint.

First off. You're providing a flat value to one that cannot be applied? 10% Damage? How are you going to accomplish this? Flat, unresistable damage from the Wyvern? How will you counter that against high defence, or physically resistant monsters? What about spike damage? Given the frequency of Weaponskill use in FFXIV, how is that going to be balanced in? What about travel distance. Suddenly, you're wyvern is running of towards Ifrit Clones and doesn't return fast enough to accompany your damage when he lands again.

Not to mention, 10% is pathetically small for a pet. Even Wyvern enthusiasts are not going to sit content with that tiny amount of damage contribution from their constant companion, and to give it more, you'd have to TAKE more from Dragoon. Which is bad, considering limited control over pets. And speaking of control, if you are going to have more control over the pet, how are you going to balance that out against the limited command number/set number for the job?

I cannot stat this empatically enough: PET CLASSES IN MMOS ARE A NIGHTMARE TO CODE AND BALANCE PROPERLY. A job and class would have to be designed from the ground up in order for it to be done effectively, and given the fact that Lancer - the Core of Dragoon, is already established and balanced as a single entity, you're talking a massive overhaul in order to get the job working with a pet - work that could be used to flush out a better mount/pet system or be focused more wholly on a fully pet orientated class/job.

I'm already afraid of what they're going to have to do to make Summoner and Beastmaster effective, and honestly I would rather they focus on balancing those properly than trying to tack on a paltry pet for what is purely aesthetic reasons to Dragoon.

It's not FFXI that puts me off. It's my experience of Pet Classes in MMO's in general that tells me SE is better off keeping the concept of 'Wyvern Pets' for Dragoon limited to the Mount system. That makes far more sense to the mechanics, the overwhelming player demand for a powerful stand-alone Dragon then jumping into the coding nightmare that could completely undercut the development team's current imagining for the job: one that is highly popular, I might add.

You can try to justify whatever reasoning you want, you don't have any ground to stand on except "I want my pet!" Which can be done the same way you can make your chocobo fight with you, and to greater benefit for both Dragoon and Wyvern. You tie it to the direct mechanics of the job, and they'll BOTH seem weaker than the player-base will be satisfied with.

Better to sacrifice your Chocobo-fighter and have a Wyvern that actually feels like a PARTNER, then approach it with this 10% fluff you're imagining.

Of the two of us, I'd say you're stuck on FFXI far more than I.

[SilvertearRen]

No really, it's not. Again, you claim I have a limited understanding of math, but you are the one looking at this from an overly simplistic standpoint.

First off. You're providing a flat value to one that cannot be applied? 10% Damage? How are you going to accomplish this? Flat, unresistable damage from the Wyvern? How will you counter that against high defence, or physically resistant monsters? What about spike damage? Given the frequency of Weaponskill use in FFXIV, how is that going to be balanced in? What about travel distance. Suddenly, you're wyvern is running of towards Ifrit Clones and doesn't return fast enough to accompany your damage when he lands again.

Not to mention, 10% is pathetically small for a pet. Even Wyvern enthusiasts are not going to sit content with that tiny amount of damage contribution from their constant companion, and to give it more, you'd have to TAKE more from Dragoon. Which is bad, considering limited control over pets. And speaking of control, if you are going to have more control over the pet, how are you going to balance that out against the limited command number/set number for the job?

I cannot stat this empatically enough: PET CLASSES IN MMOS ARE A NIGHTMARE TO CODE AND BALANCE PROPERLY. A job and class would have to be designed from the ground up in order for it to be done effectively, and given the fact that Lancer - the Core of Dragoon, is already established and balanced as a single entity, you're talking a massive overhaul in order to get the job working with a pet - work that could be used to flush out a better mount/pet system or be focused more wholly on a fully pet orientated class/job.

I'm already afraid of what they're going to have to do to make Summoner and Beastmaster effective, and honestly I would rather they focus on balancing those properly than trying to tack on a paltry pet for what is purely aesthetic reasons to Dragoon.

It's not FFXI that puts me off. It's my experience of Pet Classes in MMO's in general that tells me SE is better off keeping the concept of 'Wyvern Pets' for Dragoon limited to the Mount system. That makes far more sense to the mechanics, the overwhelming player demand for a powerful stand-alone Dragon then jumping into the coding nightmare that could completely undercut the development team's current imagining for the job: one that is highly popular, I might add.

You can try to justify whatever reasoning you want, you don't have any ground to stand on except "I want my pet!" Which can be done the same way you can make your chocobo fight with you, and to greater benefit for both Dragoon and Wyvern. You tie it to the direct mechanics of the game, and they'll BOTH seem weaker than the player-base will be satisfied with.

Better to sacrifice your Chocobo-fighter and have a Wyvern that actually feels like a PARTNER, then approach it with this 10% fluff you're imagining.

Of the two of us, I'd say you're stuck on FFXI far more than I.

*raises a glass to your wonderful arguments*

Epicly beautiful. Thank you for effectively shutting down the argument.

Simply put - it would take more time and effort to rebalance LNC and DRG into a pet class, time and energy the team does not have. What they DO have is the development of a mount/pet system that will eventually branch into the development of classes with pets such as Summoner.

To have a pet, your class must be designed for it from the ground up.

Otherwise, if we were to have DRG be changed into a pet class it's going to end up being a constant headache of repeated patches having the class nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, nerfed, buffed, ad infinitude.

That's a waste of resources.

[fmonkey13]

originally i wanted dragoon, but now love lancer and would hate to see it weakend just to have a strong companion. Maybe they should instute a compain quest for each class. Thus helping to balance things.

[Efrye]

10% Damage? How are you going to accomplish this?

By using the damage done by the dragoon, and subtracting 10%.

Obviously the 10% is just a random value, and it doesn't really matter either. It could be 50% as well or whatever they feel is appropriate - the total dragoon damage would always stay exactly the same. (Unless you want a small random factor in the wyvern damage to make it look less predictable.) That's why I called this solution only visual, there would be no real pet damage.

Travel distance shouldn't be much of an issue either. They are flying after all, a quick dash before the attack should do, and they can stay close to the dragoon at all times. I guess their attacks could also land a second or so after the dragoons, giving them time to catch up small distances.

In other words, all the issues you mentioned appear to be easy to avoid, as long as you treat the wyvern as a visual element, rather than an integral part of the gameplay.

[SilvertearRen]

By using the damage done by the dragoon, and subtracting 10%.

Obviously the 10% is just a random value, and it doesn't really matter either. It could be 50% as well or whatever they feel is appropriate - the total dragoon damage would always stay exactly the same. (Unless you want a small random factor in the wyvern damage to make it look less predictable.) That's why I called this solution only visual, there would be no real pet damage.

Travel distance shouldn't be much of an issue either. They are flying after all, a quick dash before the attack should do, and they can stay close to the dragoon at all times. I guess their attacks could also land a second or so after the dragoons, giving them time to catch up small distances.

In other words, all the issues you mentioned appear to be easy to avoid, as long as you treat the wyvern as a visual element, rather than an integral part of the gameplay.

In PVP...

Your Enemy: "HUR DUR. *One-shots Wyvern*"

You: "Aw, crap. There goes 10% of my DPS."

One reason why I don't want a wyvern for Dragoon.

[Efrye]

In PVP...

Your Enemy: "HUR DUR. *One-shots Wyvern*"

You: "Aw, crap. There goes 10% of my DPS."

One reason why I don't want a wyvern for Dragoon.

What kind of logic is this? It's a problem if the pet dies, so remove the pet?

Easier solution: Pet's don't take damage and can't die. Problem solved!

Did I mention that people think way too much along the lines of XI?

If you don't like wyvern as a visual element (I need to find a synonym for this...), I can understand that perfectly. But all those arguments based on damage and dying pets and whatnot don't make a whole lot of sense. As mentioned before, there I many ways of implementing them - It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

[SilvertearRen]

Did I mention that people think way too much along the lines of XI?

If you don't like wyvern as a visual element (I need to find a synonym for this...), I can understand that perfectly. But all those arguments based on damage and dying pets and whatnot don't make a whole lot of sense. As mentioned before, there I many ways of implementing them - It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

Pets are generally supposed to be interactable in PVP. Making them immortal seems stupid, especially in PVP parties where you can just turtle up and let the pet kill everything in sight while the party heals each other and the pet.

You are just too wrapped up in the idea of having a dragon/wyvern as a pet for the class.

News Flash: They're giving FFXIV vets one when 2.0 comes out. It's called a drake. And pets/mounts in 2.0 will likely be combat companions, too. So in a sense, you are ALREADY getting a goddamn pet for your Dragoon. Just not directly.

If you ask me, you're being silly - just like I am when it comes to debating endgame content.

[Efrye]

Pets are generally supposed to be interactable in PVP. Making them immortal seems stupid, especially in PVP parties where you can just turtle up and let the pet kill everything in sight while the party heals each other and the pet. [...]

They could simply bind a wyverns attack to the dragoon's attacks. Dragoon doesn't attack, wyvern doesn't attack. If only everything would be so simple as implementing a pet...

Edit: Oh, and before the topic of kiting comes up again: Obviously wyvern should not be able to draw hate. In the version I described, it would be nothing more than a visual element (there I go again). It shows up as mesh flying next to you and as a number in the log, but it doesn't have any real impact.

[...] You are just too wrapped up in the idea of having a dragon/wyvern as a pet for the class.

/shrug, it's much more simple than that: I like dragon pets, you don't.

Note to self: I need to find a synonym for "simple" as well, if I keep posting here.