Dragoon pet

[AmyRae]

The one thing people still keep forgetting about, is the only reason pet balance is off in MMOs is because of people complaining that they would be overpowered. It's not because they're hard to balance in terms of coding, it's because it's hard to meet a perfect balance that won't cause people to complain.

Which is exactly how much you'd be complaining if Dragoons underperformed versus other jobs. And, having a wyvern around is the perfect way to get that ball rolling.

Here's a simplified explanation of comparing a Warrior to a Dragoon:

A) Overpowered Dragoon
Dragoon 100% of Warrior damage
Wyvern 30% of Warrior damage
- Obviously this is ridiculously in favor of Dragoons. Not only does the Dragoon alone do as much damage as a Warrior, but the Wyvern puts it over the top. No other damage dealing job would be able to compete with this. Both the dragoon and wyvern combined can't cause more damage than a Warrior would.

B) Equal Damage Dragoon
Dragoon 70% of Warrior Damage
Wyvern 30% of Warrior Damage
This seems more equitable. Dragoons and Wyverns account for approximately 100% of the damage Warriors can do. But there's a problem. Because hate is split between Dragoon and Wyvern, Dragoons can spam more abilities without stealing hate. Warriors are accountable for 100% of the enmity and have to hold back. This means that Dragoons will continue to have the performance advantage over Warriors even if their damage capabilities are theoretically identical.

C) Underpowered Dragoon
Dragoon 60% of Warrior Damage
Wyvern 30% of Warrior Damage
Because Warriors take 100% enmity for all their actions, but Dragoons only take a partial amount (because it's split over two beings) they can spam more abilities without concern of stealing hate. So, it may seem fair to lessen the amount of damage Dragoons can do overall to "balance it out." Unfortunately, this means in situations where hate isn't a concern, like short fights, that Dragoons will underperform versus other damage dealing jobs and sit on the sidelines unwanted.

So you see, even as a simple damage versus enmity problem, it's already hard to figure out where to draw the line. This glosses over all sorts of other issues like damage absorption, healing pets, recovering dead wyverns, kiting, pet equipment taking up valuable damage equipment slots.

And because it's so hard to foresee just how balanced a pet job would be, it's more than likely that the developers will err on the side of underpowering Dragoons than be forced to perform a heartbreaking nerf to an overpowered job. It would be just like FFXI all over again with Dragoons struggling for legitimacy from day 1.

And that's a shame, because Dragoons have a great legacy in Final Fantasy, one that didn't involve using wyvern sidekicks.

[Dekken]

DO people just think the the wyvern damage just doesnt count or something? Yes you are slightly weaker, but the pet makes up for it. And if all you care about is parser #s...well consider adding your pet damage to it and you will be surprised. I just dont get the idea people have in their heads that if they are weaker, then its all hell and they would never think to say "well its my pet so thats also my damage".

really...i dont get it.

There are probably a few people who do think that way. I can understand though that some people want the abilities for themselves for reasons beyond just parser numbers. Maybe people would be more inclined to to acknowledge wyvern damage as part of the dragoon's damage if there was a more direct manipulation of the wyvern.

[Zanfire]

There are probably a few people who do think that way. I can understand though that some people want the abilities for themselves for reasons beyond just parser numbers. Maybe people would be more inclined to to acknowledge wyvern damage as part of the dragoon's damage if there was a more direct manipulation of the wyvern.

why wouldnt there be? I can't see a reason why we cant control the pets actions by setting them to our skill bar and them having cooldowns like everything else. Did Yoshi say they would be 100% automated like FFXI...because i dont remember that,

[Tonkra]

Ok so there are alot of posts here an im just skipping to the end.

YES I want a pet Wyvern
NO I don't want to be weakened because of it.
SOLUTION! Give dragoons a self or party buff that WHILE It is in effect has a Pet Wyvern floating alongside you as its visual effect. Something along the lines of...

Wyverns Cunning
Increases Critical Hit Rate, while lowering Defense.
30:00 Duration, :30 Recast

That gives us a nifty little companion, but doesn't need any weakening of the class.

DO people just think the the wyvern damage just doesnt count or something? Yes you are slightly weaker, but the pet makes up for it. And if all you care about is parser #s...well consider adding your pet damage to it and you will be surprised. I just dont get the idea people have in their heads that if they are weaker, then its all hell and they would never think to say "well its my pet so thats also my damage".

really...i dont get it.

I lol'd so much at this post. that is what i am thinking too the whole time ;D

im not wondering why the poll is like this, when reading statements like this of vesper. ;XD

No one truly understands this community lol. The Dragoon would be weaker, but the damage is made up with the wyvern. People see the words "weaker" and say "NO GET WHAT IS CAUSING IT TO BE WEAKER OUT OF HERE" basically. Unless they make heavy modifications to the way critical hits are handled in this game or they just don't care for balance, Dragoon will get nerfed very quickly if it's a critical based job.

Know how Archer got nerfed because of basically bringing about the apocalypse? Yeah, Dragoon will be next in line. In FFXI, the wyvern was literally essential for solo play, because it gained access to restoring and healing breaths, which if it was done by the Dragoon itself, guess what would happen? You not only drop your overall damage in order to use a breath move or restoring ability, you also lay yourself open for attack, whereas if your wyvern did it, you're free to do whatever after a simple cast of dia.

The one thing people still keep forgetting about, is the only reason pet balance is off in MMOs is because of people complaining that they would be overpowered. It's not because they're hard to balance in terms of coding, it's because it's hard to meet a perfect balance that won't cause people to complain.

thumbs up for that.

wow.. there is hope for humanity. pew.
although i almost lost that hope ;D

And because it's so hard to foresee just how balanced a pet job would be, it's more than likely that the developers will err on the side of underpowering Dragoons than be forced to perform a heartbreaking nerf to an overpowered job. It would be just like FFXI all over again with Dragoons struggling for legitimacy from day 1.

you do a logically mistake.... they dont need to underpower anything... the only thing they'll have to change is... to >>>SPLIT<<< the 100% damage (into two) of the drg into the damage the wyvern does and into the damage the drg itself does.. thats all...

100% = 70% drg+30 %wyvern for example.
they "lower" the damage of the drg maybe itself.. but in a TOTAL there is NO DIFFERENCE in damage-

yoshida said somethin about lowering the weapon damage.. yeah but therefore he receives extra pet damage which makes it equal again

[AmyRae]

you do a logically mistake.... they dont need to underpower anything... the only thing they'll have to change is... to >>>SPLIT<<< the 100% damage (into two) of the drg into the damage the wyvern does and into the damage the drg itself does.. thats all...

100% = 70% drg+30 %wyvern for example.
they "lower" the damage of the drg maybe itself.. but in a TOTAL there is NO DIFFERENCE in damage-

You're just so eager to insult me that you didn't bother to read that I covered exactly that. And you'd also notice that I point out the problem with that approach:

Because you ">>>SPLIT<<< the 100% damage (into two)" as you put it, Dragoons are still overpowered because they can spam more damage abilities (because they have 2 enmity "pools" not 1) while other DD jobs have hold themselves back or risk stealing hate.

[creven]

I vote for pet u still going do dmg its not like the mrd or war will do better dmg then dragoon only one they will out dmg drg will be archer and i dont think they going leave lnc at 50

[Keith_Dragoon]

You're just so eager to insult me that you didn't bother to read that I covered exactly that. And you'd also notice that I point out the problem with that approach:

Because you ">>>SPLIT<<< the 100% damage (into two)" as you put it, Dragoons are still overpowered because they can spam more damage abilities (because they have 2 enmity "pools" not 1) while other DD jobs have hold themselves back or risk stealing hate.

Easy fix: Pet dmg = drg hate...

Problem solved and there is no reason to over complicate things any further. A blance has been found which gives no real advantage to dragoon over warrior besides its Job specific abilities which it will get Wyvern or not. I mean if someone sent their pet after me I'd go for the master first seeing as they are more of a threat to me then the pet.

[AmyRae]

Easy fix: Pet dmg = drg hate...

Problem solved and there is no reason to over complicate things any further. A blance has been found which gives no real advantage to dragoon over warrior besides its Job specific abilities which it will get Wyvern or not. I mean if someone sent their pet after me I'd go for the master first seeing as they are more of a threat to me then the pet.

Then dragoons can easily solo mobs above their level. Simply set the wyvern to attack while the dragoon runs out of range. All the hits the wyvern makes will only make the mob chase and use its abilities on its master. Who needs tanks or healers?

Even if you solve the damage-versus-enmity issue, there's all these: "damage absorption, healing pets, recovering dead wyverns, kiting, pet equipment taking up valuable damage equipment slots." Those are the ones I could think of; I'm sure there's others.

If you really want a simple solution, then you make wyvern pets nothing more than an extension of the dragoon: A showy delivery system for breath attacks with no other substance than that. No auto-attack, no health, just floats there awaiting the dragoon's use of a TP move and that's it.

[Keith_Dragoon]

Then dragoons can easily solo mobs above their level. Simply set the wyvern to attack while the dragoon runs out of range. All the hits the wyvern makes will only make the mob chase and use its abilities on its master. Who needs tanks or healers?

Even if you solve the damage-versus-enmity issue, there's all these: "damage absorption, healing pets, recovering dead wyverns, kiting, pet equipment taking up valuable damage equipment slots." Those are the ones I could think of; I'm sure there's others.

If you really want a simple solution, then you make wyvern pets nothing more than an extension of the dragoon: A showy delivery system for breath attacks with no other substance than that. No auto-attack, no health, just floats there awaiting the dragoon's use of a TP move and that's it.

Since when has kiting actually been viable in this game? mobs would just throw/spit/shoot things at you and kill you faster then your wyvern kills it.

As far as the rest goes, those issues seem made up and not really possible. Puppetmaster in XI had armor of sorts for it and yet when equiping them to the puppet it did not take up inventory. The dying pet thing shouldn't be much issue if the wyvern has more HP then a lvl 5 marmot or has a dmg reduction % based on its actual amount of HP. Not sure what you mean about dmg absorption unless you mean like how in XI a pet would split the dmg of 1000 needles with you.

[CSLionheart]

This whole pet thing shouldn't even be a debate...in accordance with traditional FF lore, dragoons are dragon SLAYERS. Not only that, if you refer to XIV's lore, it's obvious that their entire existence is for the purpose of fighting dragons, especially in Ishgard. I can say with 99% confidence that the dragoon quest will involve Ishgard in one way or another.

That said, XI is the only game in which dragoons fought alongside a pet dragon/wyvern/what have you, and although it was an interesting and original idea, I sincerely hope XI remains the only game. Not to mention that giving dragoons dragon-like abilities as a compromise sounds badass. Somehow the idea of my character using elemental breaths looks awesome in my head.