CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM

[Duuude007]

Supporting evidence that Conjurers have Canonical White Mage backgrounds

"Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings...Attuned to the essence of all things around them, the conjurers' intimacy with all forms of being enables them to shift between offensive and defensive magic as needed." --- Official site, Armory

Conjury guild located at: Stillglade Fane, Gridania; Definition of FANE: a church --- Merriam Webster

At entrance to Conjury Guild: Khuja Zhwan: "Beyond here lies Stillglade Fane. It is sacred ground, marked by the Skyserpent's Egg, the Stone cast to Eorzea from the heavens by Nophica the Matron."

T'nbulea: "Worry not. The elementals will protect us from all evils─Garlean or otherwise."

Concessa: "Please, do not sully me with your presence. The stench of the woodsin is all about you."

Commonly used Conjurer weapons: Wands & radicals blooming with life.

The symbol for Conjury: A blooming twig

Default attack: Spirit Dart

Only TP- Based moves: Radiance & Levinbolt, dealing astral-based damage. (Light and Lightning)

Supporting evidence that Thaumaturges have Canonical Black Mage backgrounds

"In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction...To then mold [sic] aether into sorcery, the thaumaturge makes use of a scepter or staff...Thaumaturges are unparalleled in their powers of destruction, eclipsing even the Disciples of War." --- Official site, Armory

Thaumaturgy guild located at: Arrzaneth Ossuary, Uld'ah; Definition of OSSUARY: a depository for the bones of the dead --- Merriam Webster

At entrance to Thaumaturgy Guild: Eleanor: "One of the thaumaturges in there once told me to come to him in my darkest hour. For a price, he'd exact whatever revenge I saw fit, he said. Tempting, no?"

Yayake: "All life culminates in the birth of death, so say we all. Greetings, and welcome to the Arrzaneth Ossuary.... Do you desire to see the other realm through the eyes of a thaumaturge? Do you wish to know the limits of this mortal coil?"

Fyrilsunn: "Arrzaneth Ossuary is the temple of Thal.
.. His aspect is that of death and darkness, that which we shall all come to know in time. Many of the poor and destitute worship here. For it is they who seek a better place in death than they knew in life."

Tutubuki: "If you would walk these halls, you must know of Nald'thal, the two aspects. It is Nald who rules over this world of the living, and Thal who keeps the realm of the dead.
.. All which lives must die, and to cross over one must be devout of mind─a true follower of Thal."

Commonly used Thaumaturge weapons: Staves & brands carved from the bones of the dead.

The symbol for Thaumaturgy: An urn, filled with flames.

Default attack: Phantom Dart

Only TP- Based moves: Damnation & Flashfreeze, dealing Umbral-based damage. (Dark and Ice)

In conclusion (and tl:dr version): CNJ = WHM and THM = BLM, because:

Descriptions: CNJ = Creation vs. THM = Destruction
Guilds: CNJ = Church vs. THM = Crypt
Deity: CNJ = Nophica, aspect of growth and abundance vs. THM = Thal, aspect of death and darkness
Role: CNJ = Protectors vs. THM = Revenge
Dislikes: CNJ = Sin vs. THM = Safety
Weapons: CNJ = Life vs. THM = Death
Normal Attack: CNJ = Spirit vs. THM = Phantom
TP Attack: CNJ = Astral vs. THM = Umbral

[Klive]

Fundamental for elementalist is elemental nukes. Fundamental for the light/dark class are light/dark spells.

I agree with you, but does SE see it that way? That is all my point was.

Fundamentally BLM have always have elemental nukes as there core spell list and WHM have always had holy/light spells. I'm not saying they will or won't have these. Just keep an open mind, SE really could change just about anything with the two caster classes with the coming Class Revamp. Nothing more.

[Ziddy]

I thought I read in one of the interviews that in order to become PLD you would need 30 GLD and 15 MRD. If that's the case you may need to be 30THM / 15 CNJ for BLM which could give them access to the elemental nukes, plus the spells THM has.

[Gennosuke]

I could only see something like that happening under extreme conditions.

Like if you'd welcome changes to FINAL FANTASY XIV that would drastically alter the rules already set in Eorzea.

Completely agree.. and i like your sig!

Edit: Reading over rep post, saying they wont have major changes probably means that cnj will still have elementals, but this will contradict it's job counter part which i assume wont have elementals (whm).

He did say if people voice their opinion for big changes, theyll consider.. i personally think it makes more sense to have thm as DD and cnj as healer, thatll keep harmony between class and job and means people dont have to level both classes to get what they need for class and job play.

[Neptune]

Oh God, Dude007 posted in this thread too.

I haven't said it in this thread yet, but because of the controversy with this move, all they need to do is give you access to either job with either, and the remaining job if you level up the other class.

[Klive]

Oh God, Dude007 posted in this thread too.

I haven't said it in this thread yet, but because of the controversy with this move, all they need to do is give you access to either job with either, and the remaining job if you level up the other class.

Would be nice, but I doubt it.

I would like to say more on the topic, but too many threads on the topic and they are going in circles. I'm just waiting for Yoshi's next post on the class revamp before touching this flame war again.

[Tonkra]

in my (and square enix) opinion the thaumaturge fits much better into the "black magic" thing.. besides the skills.. because of story line and lore.

reposting from the other thread:

Ul'dah storyline.. the sitaution: The father of Ascillia died and now they want to talk to the widely discussed order of Nald'Thal. to get him back into the world of the living.

its about the thaumaturgs guild/order believing into the god of death "Thal"



L'hamin:"Have you heard of the order of Nal'thal? Their kind have practiced a dark sorcery since ancient times[..]


Intro (you can only see the text in the chatwindow, because the user hasn't recorded that)
Fyrillsunn: "Arrazaneth ossuary is the temple of that his aspect is that of death and darkness"



Mumuepo: "The man's soul belongs to Thal now, but his remains belong to the ossuary. I will...examine them further"
L'hamin: "The order bought the corpse?! to what end?!"

Mumuepo: "You neednt lose your composure.And it do you no good to speak of this to the syndicate.[...]
There is much my arts could coax from her memory. things of which she is even unaware. Should you ever wish to discover more i would be gladly"
L'hamin: "Ascillia wont be touched! The dark arts are not save when used on the young. even those outside of the order know this. i will not allow it!"


So with that in mind.. and the creepy atmosphere in the cutscenes.. the thaumaturges and the order seem more dark and creepy than of the nature living conjurer.
their practices are dark and creepy..

Square Enix knows what they have downwritten within the story and lore:

[SIZE="6"]Quotes[/SIZE] (for manifesting the role and lore of the THM)
How the practices of the thaumaturgs and the order is seen by all inhabitants of Eorzea(just from 3 of those cutscenes):
"a dark sorcery since ancient times"
"Arrazaneth ossuary is the temple of that his aspect is that of death and darkness
"The dark arts are not save when used on the young"



So conclusion what thaumaturgery is about:
thaumaturgery is about mind manipulation, weakening enemys, draining energy out of corpses, poisoning targets, darkness spells like scourge.. that what thaumaturgery is about!! they are not caring about curing wounds in primary! like nature living conjurers (druids) do.

the backgrounds of thm's are heretical and dark. thats what the population (e.g. L'hamin) is thinking. its not that they are all in all evil. BUT their practices are debatable and dark.

nothing to do with a holy white mage.

i mean if you compare the conjurer guild in the green grove with those thaumaturge guild.. i think its obvious which is the one who refers more to black/dark magic.

[Answa]

THIS IS A NON-ISSUE. Only the THM=BLM people continue to care. Just stop. >.>

Jesus Christ, you people love reading your walls of text.

[Estellios]

I blame you for this madness, Answa.

You you you you you you you you

[SIZE="6"]YOU[/SIZE]

[AmyRae]

Yes, we get it. Thaumaturge is dark, with lots of dark knight and red mage spells at its disposal. They drain, absorb and enfeeble life.

Meanwhile Conjurers have 33 black mage spells primarily composed of elemental magic (fitting with Gridania's overt elemental themes). They may have healing spells, but they certainly pack a punch with their vast library of elemental nukes, there's no denying it.

People didn't chose the Black Mage job in Final Fantasies past because they like to absorb the accuracy and MP out of the creatures they fought, they did it so they could set them ablaze with Fire spells or alight them with Lightning spells. And yet, Conjurers were the ones to deliver this light show, not the Thaumaturge.

This is the conundrum; nothing else is.