3.4 speculation

[Brannigan]

You know the Echo buff in dungeons? When we 'wipe', the failure in-lore is considered a possible vision of the future. This gives us insight, which manifests gameplay-wise as increased stats and power.

Citation please. I've heard a lot of people say something along these lines (echo sends you back in time to try the fight again, etc) but I've never seen anyone official who has said that wiping/trying again is anything but a game mechanic.

[Enkidoh]

The Echo has always given us foresight.

You know the Echo buff in dungeons? When we 'wipe', the failure in-lore is considered a possible vision of the future. This gives us insight, which manifests gameplay-wise as increased stats and power.

We actually have a canonical example of someone who manifested future vision as a part of the Echo. Moreso then the foresight given to the WoL.

In the very first trailer for FFXIV, Derplander received what was confirmed as a vision of the future as a result of his Echo, which involved him fighting alongside yet-to-be met companions. After receiving it, he then set off to find the adventurers he'd seen. By the time of the End of an Era, he's found them and they fight alongside him during the Battle of Carteneau.

That's actually not correct - the Echo does not grant the user the ability to 'see the future', because it only acts on 'breaking down the barriers of the soul', namely, literally reading another person's memories Inception style. When you view the Echo, you're viewing events that have already happened to another person, experiencing those events as if you yourself had lived through them - this is what Minfilia told the player way back at the start of both 1.0 and ARR. The Echo thus does not work on viewing future events because the future has not happened yet - unless SE adds some kind of time-travel aspect to the game, this will remain an impossibility.

And the scene of Derplander Echo-tripping in the original opening movie to 1.0 was into the past not the future - he Echo-travelled back into another's memories of what was then ten years into the past to the Battle of Silvertear Skies where he inadvertently encountered another adventurer party fighting a malboro, only to be carried away by a Garlean Juggernaut into the battle against Midgardsormr and the Dravanian Horde, witnessing Middy's 'death' and the destruction of the Agrius... and the release of the Primals from the aetheric seal beneath the lake. All that happened in the game's 'past' not it's future or present. Ferne confirmed that officially in this really old thread now archived in the 1.0 forum section.

So basically, the Echo does not allow it's user to glimpse the future, because that simply is not how it works - it works on breaking down the boundaries of the soul and allowing it's user to read another's memories and glimpse their past. Because the future hasn't occurred yet, no memory yet exists of it, and hence, no Echo glimpse of the future. And the 'Power of the Echo' buff in duties is simply a gameplay mechanic that actually has no story connection, it's just a gameplay gimmick with a fancy name, nothing more - to say otherwise would be the same as saying the GLA ability 'Tempered Will' tempers the player or something equally stupid.

[Anonymoose]

<...>

Kudos on finding a good way to articulate why the Echo (probably) can't work like that, given what we know thus far.

When they say that the Echo manifests differently for everyone, it still seems as though all of those different ways still relate to interactions between sentient beings on the "soul level". Someone might technically speak all languages, but it seems to be because their soul is resonating with others' in a way that they understand as best as possible what is meant to be conveyed and how also to convey something back to that person. Someone might technically see visions of the past, but it seems to be because their soul is resonating with others' in a way that they can sense/perceive strong memories as if they were their own. As far as we know, clairvoyance would be a solo superpower whereby there's nothing for your soul to resonate with. It'd be like the Echo manifesting as the ability to fly or shapeshift.

"It manifests differently for everyone." probably doesn't mean, "It can manifest as anything."
Imagine if it did, though! Can you imagine being the Charlie Brown of Echo powers?

"When I was awoken, Mother's gift manifested as an allergy to mangoes."

[Frederick22]

I really wanna know if it is the unique trait of the Echo on the WoL that is gaving him the advantaje plus his combat skills and not just his blessing of light.

[Alisa180]

I stand corrected on Derplander. I'm still looking for a citation on the Echo buff.

But I did find an interesting comment on Reddit:

"The power to break down the barriers of existence"
This sentence does a better job at conveying the meaning of the original Japanese word than "echo" does. "超える力" (koeru chikara) means "the power to overcome", or "the power to exceed (limits)" or "the power to cross (barriers)".

EDIT: Hey, Aonymoose, here's something for you to try digging for. Supposedly, Minfilia's manifestation of the Echo allowed her to glimpse the future on rare occasions. It was mentioned once or twice in 1.0. While I admit this deals a blow to the theory currently under discussion, since the 2.0 story has a habit of linking back to and bringing back obscure 1.0 plot points, its worth looking into, I think.

[Anonymoose]

Hey, Aonymoose, here's something for you to try digging for. Supposedly, Minfilia's manifestation of the Echo allowed her to glimpse the future on rare occasions. It was mentioned once or twice in 1.0. While I admit this deals a blow to the theory currently under discussion, since the 2.0 story has a habit of linking back to and bringing back obscure 1.0 plot points, its worth looking into, I think.

Any idea where this was supposedly mentioned? I have all of 1.0's lore and quest data backed up and I took a peruse through the main scenario, then every mention of Minfilia in general, and then actually every mention of the word "future" in the game and (unless I skimmed over something) there was nothing of the sort that I could see. The only people who've made a claim to know the future are Urianger (who was putting faith in the prophecies of Mezaya Thousand Eyes about the coming Calamity) and Jihli Aliapoh, who is part of the holiday arcs and doesn't seem to have the Echo, anyway. Got anything that can help me zero in on a place to look?

[EDIT] Still trying different ideas for digging. Found a weird one-liner from a Small Talk NPC that I'd forgotten all about.

We are each blessed in different ways. While I was given the gift of farsight, the gods did not see fit to grant me with the ability to comprehend languages. What of you, [PLAYER NAME]? Have you spoken with our visitors? Were you able to understand them? Something tells me you will prove our savior this day.

While it doesn't go into specifics, farsight has a few ways to be interpreted, one of which being knowledge of events before they happen. Unfortunately, though, this line exists only in English and the word farsight is never used in English again. In all other languages, this NPC is simply saying, "I didn't understand the sylphs at all. You have the Echo, right? Did you?"

[Nalien]

Farsight and foresight strike me as potentially different things, although the application is potentially similar with regards to 2.55 and Alisaie... I would imagine farsight is literally the ability to see far... You know an ambush is coming because you can see them heading your way... Unlike reading the future, the applications of that would still fit with breaking barriers IMO, if I can jump into your soul and do the Manderville in your memories, I can jump out of my body and see round a corner...

I'm pretty sure I already debunked the idea that Alisaie used the Echo to foresee the Crystal Braves little coup attempt anyway, unless I'm misremembering details from 2.55... F'lhaminn and Tataru were ambushed by the Crystal Braves in Limsa, Yugiri stepped in and herself and Tataru escaped on a boat to Vesper Bay, where they'd certainly have informed Alisaie and Urianger of events, before making way to Coerthas... Does anyone actually have any of the Urianger/Tataru dialog from around then? Some of it might have been optional dialog with them between events, but I'm fairly certain it's at least implied that Tataru tipped them off to the coup...

If any Echo user has the ability to see the future, I'd be more incline to suggest its Elidibus... Presumably he has the Echo, and given his recent dialog, a good understanding of how events will unfold... That seems more based on prophecy than any direct insight though... Interestingly, Nabriales already displayed some mastery over time...

[SaiphaeWiloh]

That's actually not correct - the Echo does not grant the user the ability to 'see the future', because it only acts on 'breaking down the barriers of the soul', namely, literally reading another person's memories Inception style. When you view the Echo, you're viewing events that have already happened to another person, experiencing those events as if you yourself had lived through them - this is what Minfilia told the player way back at the start of both 1.0 and ARR. The Echo thus does not work on viewing future events because the future has not happened yet - unless SE adds some kind of time-travel aspect to the game, this will remain an impossibility.

To play Devil's Advocate here, that's exactly why the Echo could allow for foresight though. There's a Nick Cage movie that I can't remember the name of where he's able to glimpse the future by looking at possible actions and deducing the outcome, this is also the basis of Garnet's power in Steven Universe. Basically, if the Echo allows us to glimpse into another person's soul and see past actions and memories, but the Echo manifests differently in other people, who's to say that the Echo couldn't allow someone to glimpse into another person's soul and see intent.

This could also explain why we don't have echo users flying to help us saying "If Haurchefant does X, then Y will do Z and kill them." or "Niddhogg will attack at 8 am sharp!", While they could figure that out they'd have to be using the Echo on every person, Dragon, Ascian, etc. they pass.

I forget how we got on the discussion of the Echo and Foresight, so I can't really put it into context of how it would work in the original situation that brought this conversation up (I'll edit it once I backtrack through the forum and find it), but if the Echo allows us to see another person's soul, I see no reason why it wouldn't allow us to see glimpses of what they might/are most likely to do in a particular situation.

I didn't remember the exact situation from 2.55, but after looking on the FF wiki, I see where she sent a carriage to Ul'dah with Bernhardt, which saved her brother and the WoL. Going back to my theory of the Echo allowing her to see someone's intent -- If she was in Ul'dah when the plot was being hatched, she could have glimpsed at the intent of the plot to blame it all on the WoL/Scions. If she was able to discern the plot and the intended consequences of the plot through the Echo, she could then deduce that there are going to be Scions, her brother included, that are going to need to get out of Ul'dah after everything goes down.

[Velhart]

snip

Or could be one knows the plans of the future because they used the echo to view past events where certain characters were plotting something at a particular time. Giving the one using the echo an opportunity to warn people. You still don't know how the future is going to turn out. Like "Okay we are going to attack this place tonight at 8PM", then you warn that place they are coming.

[Velhart]

3.4/3.4 Extreme Dungeon: Castrum Oriens located in eastern shroud

its in the way of ala migho, they wont let us pass that easily.

Didn't have a hard time passing them in Mor Dhona.