Thread: 3.4 speculation

Originally Posted by Slatersev

I have know doubt will meet more sympathetic Garleans one day but there going to be what you hate Theo, there going to be like Cid and Lucia, (not blinded by patriotism fascists which is what most Garleans actually are) and help us reform it, not suddenly reveal "Oh hey guys Garleans are cool now there genocides were justified"

Need I remind you of a certain general in a FF game who got away with genocide? heheh.

Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Need I remind you of a certain general in a FF game who got away with genocide? heheh.

Rufus Shinra in FF7 and the side-story games did some very questionable things and got away with them. He was 'redeemed' and yet never lost much of what made him so interesting as an antagonist.

Kuja and Beatrix of FF9 did some very dubious things throughout FF9 and both of them were redeemed by the end of the game. In fact, Brahne can technically be included - though she actually died.

I assume Beatrix is who you are referring to though.

The mistake people make around these parts is assuming that a character or organisation is thoroughly evil and cannot possibly be redeemed in any way beyond death...when the franchise itself stands in defiance of that. Though it's possible that they simply haven't played any other Final Fantasy games, I suppose.

That's not a mistake I'm making at all, Like I said were going to meet sympathetic Garleans, but there going to be what YOU see as traitors, characters like Cid and Lucia, who already exist to show how not all Garleans are bad.

But do you know HOW they showed that? Bu having them actively oppose everything that present Garlemald actually is. Garlemald will be reformed the same way Ishgard was, introducing sympathetic NPC's who want to reform the obviously broken and corrupt part of there Society.

Varis and Regula are not going to be revealed as hero's they'll continue to be shown as what they are, arrogant, delusional, racists who want oh so very badly to be Allag Lite, there going to be used to contrast the bad from the good one's like Cid and Lucia, and then killed to allow reform to take place.

Originally Posted by Slatersev

That's not a mistake I'm making at all, Like I said were going to meet sympathetic Garleans, but there going to be what YOU see as traitors, characters like Cid and Lucia, who already exist to show how not all Garleans are bad.

But do you know HOW they showed that? Bu having them actively oppose everything that present Garlemald actually is. Garlemald will be reformed the same way Ishgard was, introducing sympathetic NPC's who want to reform the obviously broken and corrupt part of there Society.

Varis and Regula are not going to be revealed as hero's they'll continue to be shown as what they are, arrogant, delusional, racists who want oh so very badly to be Allag Lite, there going to be used to contrast the bad from the good one's like Cid and Lucia, and then killed to allow reform to take place.

Oh noes, anything but RACISTS!

I can see why fantasy as a genre is swiftly going down the gutter. If Garlemald is to be reformed in such a bland, uninspired way, I'd rather it were destroyed. The default response seems to be to reform anything and everything into some bland form of mob rule, at least if some of the less imaginative, more "morally" exercised parts of the playerbase got their way.

Originally Posted by Lauront

Oh noes, anything but RACISTS!

I can see why fantasy as a genre is swiftly going down the gutter. If Garlemald is to be reformed in such a bland, uninspired way, I'd rather it were destroyed. The default response seems to be to reform anything and everything into some bland form of mob rule, at least if some of the less imaginative, more "morally" exercised parts of the playerbase got their way.

LOL get off, I used racism as a bullet point on the problems Garleans have, that's the point them being racists is part of the reason there cool with genocide, it's another reason reform is the only logical way we could ever be REAL allies with them.

It's not about being "morally exercised" or whatever drivel you just tried to spew, it's that after everything Garlemald has done, becoming allies with them longterm in there current state would be so actively OOC for so many of there allies that it would break the story. Garlemald getting away with everything they've done and staying the same with a slap on the wrist would be garbage White Washing to the extreme.

The fact that some people are so eager to excuse them strikes me as weird because the logical consequences of everything they've done would be they get wiped out or reform to are standards as an apology for all the genocide and droping fucking moons on where we live.

Moral grayness is great, but not when it bends the narrative to actively forgive and forget things that should be remembered.

I see this place continues to be an echo chamber for the self righteous, unfortunately. There's no need to get up in arms over a debate regarding the lore of a video game of all things...and it's perfectly possible for people to simply agree to disagree instead of regurgitating the exact same arguments every time Garlemald happens to be mentioned as a point of discussion.

As far as I'm concerned there's not enough information present to say with certainty that Garlemald lacks any justification for their actions. I also don't believe that real world morals should be forced upon fantasy races, organisations and individuals. It just makes for a dull, boring narrative. If anything, it's the protagonists who are consistently excused and shrouded in plot armour; not the antagonists.

Personally I'm rather fond of gritty elves. It's a real shame that they've been gutted and had much of their culture eroded away so that they can adhere to real world morality rather than their sense of morality. It happened in WoW with blood elves and night elves. It happened in ESO with the Altmer. It happened in FFXIV with Ishgardians...and whilst Garleans aren't elves I'm rather fond of them and it will, no doubt, happen with them as well.

It doesn't matter if fantasy races aren't justified from our perspective. What matters is if they're justified from their perspective - and that is what should matter most. Otherwise the fantasy genre will continue to stagnate.

Morality is much more complicated and subjective than many here give credit to. So either we can agree to disagree or perhaps those who appear to be overly frustrated can make use of the ignore functionor something since I'm very unlikely to change my mind on this particular subject.

I could go off on a tangent about how it's also completely subjective as to how people read into various characters as well but that would require quite a bit of effort. One person may sympathise with Nanamo, for instance, whilst someone else considers her to be a complete and utter fool. Some may want her dead, others alive...and then there's all manner of other factors to read into and form opinions on. That's...generally how these things work so it's a shame for the same select few to shout down any and all opinions and 'reads' that are to the contrary of what they happen to believe.