3.4 speculation

**Theodric** · 07-18-2016 05:17 AM

A rational debate seems impossible, then, I see.

If you're going to associate a fondness for a morally dubious fictional race with supporting Nazi Germany then it's pretty clear that you're not interested in a debate in the first place.

Then again it isn't the first time such an 'argument' has been put forward on this board and it likely won't be the last either.

As I said, we shall simply have to agree to disagree on the subject. Which, incidentally, is yet another attempt to get people to discuss something else instead of allowing things to escalate further.

**Frederick22** · 07-18-2016 05:35 AM

Originally Posted by Theodric

A rational debate seems impossible, then, I see.

If you're going to associate a fondness for a morally dubious fictional race with supporting Nazi Germany then it's pretty clear that you're not interested in a debate in the first place.

Then again it isn't the first time such an 'argument' has been put forward on this board and it likely won't be the last either.

As I said, we shall simply have to agree to disagree on the subject. Which, incidentally, is yet another attempt to get people to discuss something else instead of allowing things to escalate further.

We gave you concrete evidence and you said that this debate is not rational? wow.. okay

**Theodric** · 07-18-2016 05:53 AM

Originally Posted by Frederick22

We gave you concrete evidence and you said that this debate is not rational? wow.. okay

You didn't, really. I pointed out - repeatedly - that the Garleans are painted in a negative light largely because we haven't seen their side of the story. It's much in the same way as how the situation with the Dravanians played out. How many people brushed them off as mindless beasts to be slaughtered because they were 'evil' up until the 'big reveal', I wonder? Quite a few, I imagine. In fact if you go through the older threads on this board then there's many posts to be found regarding such matters.

If you don't agree, that's fine. There's no need to make it personal though, especially with the horrid associations with supporting Nazi Germany. Will I get a genuine apology for that, I wonder? I doubt it very much. To me it just cements my concerns that quite a few vocal posters here are more than willing to get nasty and seek to drive away people with different opinions to them. Which wouldn't be unusual for a site like this - coming from a WoW background I am well aware of the bizarre and weird lengths at which people go to in order to defend their favoured faction or race.

Add to that a hive mind mentality and it makes for a dangerous combination...especially when the number of active posters is rather small to begin with.

**PArcher** · 07-18-2016 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Theodric

YAdd to that a hive mind mentality and it makes for a dangerous combination...especially when the number of active posters is rather small to begin with.

Or...maybe, just maybe...everyone is against you because you are so wrong we can't believe how you're able to keep going.

Its as if you believe the earth is flat.

**VargasVermillion** · 07-18-2016 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by PArcher

Or...maybe, just maybe...everyone is against you because you are so wrong we can't believe how you're able to keep going.

Its as if you believe the earth is flat.

I think you might be taking it a little seriously, as mentioned we don't know enough to outright call them nazis, much less people who are interested in seeing more about garlemald AS an empire and a country with more sympathetic people, not just generic evil doers and something we defeat and recreate into a new government.

**Kallera** · 07-18-2016 08:59 PM

Am I a fan of Garlemeld? Not really.

Do I want to decimate whole cities and spearhead an effort to wipe them off the face of the earth? Again, not really.

Indeed, when given a glimpse at their perspective, they think we're either ignorant or backward, that we are slapping away the chance to be saved. There has to be some facts that make them believe this, and I doubt its "magically induced brainwashing", especially after the story of Ishgard and given the presence of Cid and other NPCs. Facts that would get people from other nations to believe the Garlean cause.

Will there be those that will think that annihilating the Garleans will be the only way? Probably. And It'll be just as unnerving if they get their way. Because as far as our immortal chessmasters hoping to sow death and destruction are concerned, does it really matter who does the deed, so much as it is done by someone?

(And if Cid would end up totally on board with destroying his own country well that would just piss me off.

)

**Frederick22** · 07-18-2016 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by Theodric

Add to that a hive mind mentality and it makes for a dangerous combination...especially when the number of active posters is rather small to begin with.

Just wow..... Cilia gaves you concrete evidence, I gave you concrete evidence and Parcher too.
But you still think we have a hive mind and saing irracional things.

Just by adding the music of the garlean empire is very similar in some way to the all known popular song of Dark Vader. Common.

Little ppl supports you. Just admit we are right in what we are saing.

Also what made the Nazi german evil was Hitler, Gobbels and the SS. But the people of its nation, some did not agree, just remember Operation Valkyrie.

Garleam empire is similar. A militar dictatorship. But of couse there could be someone on the army that doest agree with this. I agree that is posible we may become allies with one of the unknow legatus.

**Cilia** · 07-18-2016 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Theodric

A rational debate seems impossible, then, I see.

A rational debate is perfectly possible. You are, however, being willfully ignorant of Garlemald's motive and sweeping their very ugly side under the rug.

Why did Garlemald become a military culture driven by conquest? Solus zos Galvus introduced them to magitek 50 years ago, became their emperor, and told them to go forth and conquer. That is it. That is literally the entire reason. Not because they wanted better land or because their neighbors were abusive to them. Pre-empire they were a small, backwater farming nation. Then they got magitek and zos Galvus told them to use it to subjugate others. So they did. Might there be more to the story? Possibly... but this is what we know to be true with what information we have.

Revolts against Garlean rule causing the death of innocent Garleans? Maybe. But Garlemald brings it on themselves by subjugating other nations purely because they can, and the possible death of non-military Garleans in the name of liberation is tragic but Garlemald has proven they are not open to willingly relinquishing conquered territory. Slaughtering countless, helpless innocent people in response to this is not justified.

War orphan sob stories a la Livia? Another thing they bring on themselves with their gluttonous desire for conquest.

What of the rest? I've yet to see a rebuttal. If you want to debate let's go, but don't excuse some of their atrocities and conveniently ignore the rest.

I said it before and I'll say it again - Gaius van Baelsar was an exemplar of the best and worst aspects of the Empire. While his legion was rogue, they were effectively a microcosm of Garlemald proper, and he explains his motives and much of his philosophy verbatim before the elevator duel against him:

Originally Posted by Gaius van Baelsar

For the world of man to mean anything, man must own the world. To this end, he hath ever fought to raise himself through conflict - to grow rich through conquest. And when the dust of battle settles, it is ever the strong who dictate the fate of the weak. ... It is only right that I should take your realm, for none among you has the power to stop me!

**Ametrine** · 07-18-2016 05:35 AM

Well, OF COURSE the Garleans had a reason to start their conquest. Probably one they could justify to themselves, like perhaps their original land lacked the natural resources to feed their own people, but their neighboring nations did.

That doesn't justify Garlemald's current leadership treating anyone not Garlean as slave labor, cannon fodder, or a trophy to win. I'm not even touching the whole sex slave issue, but it needs to be mentioned that it's a thing that exists!

So, while I don't think Garlemald's entire pureblood population is evil to the core, nor that we couldn't find some allies who stay on the side of Garlemald, it's ABUNDANTLY clear that the people in charge of the nation think their atrocious acts against humanity are justified, even if only because that's what they've been taught their whole lives.

War is never simple.

**VargasVermillion** · 07-18-2016 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Ametrine

Well, OF COURSE the Garleans had a reason to start their conquest. Probably one they could justify to themselves, like perhaps their original land lacked the natural resources to feed their own people, but their neighboring nations did.

It doesn't take much to realize what kind of history a country where it's people have a genetic disadvantage to almost every other species on the planet would have. A civilization born on the ideals where the weak get trampled by the strong is a pretty big give away.

Thread: 3.4 speculation

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