Thread: 3.4 speculation

Originally Posted by Lauront

Oh noes, anything but RACISTS!

I can see why fantasy as a genre is swiftly going down the gutter. If Garlemald is to be reformed in such a bland, uninspired way, I'd rather it were destroyed. The default response seems to be to reform anything and everything into some bland form of mob rule, at least if some of the less imaginative, more "morally" exercised parts of the playerbase got their way.

LOL get off, I used racism as a bullet point on the problems Garleans have, that's the point them being racists is part of the reason there cool with genocide, it's another reason reform is the only logical way we could ever be REAL allies with them.

It's not about being "morally exercised" or whatever drivel you just tried to spew, it's that after everything Garlemald has done, becoming allies with them longterm in there current state would be so actively OOC for so many of there allies that it would break the story. Garlemald getting away with everything they've done and staying the same with a slap on the wrist would be garbage White Washing to the extreme.

The fact that some people are so eager to excuse them strikes me as weird because the logical consequences of everything they've done would be they get wiped out or reform to are standards as an apology for all the genocide and droping fucking moons on where we live.

Moral grayness is great, but not when it bends the narrative to actively forgive and forget things that should be remembered.

I see this place continues to be an echo chamber for the self righteous, unfortunately. There's no need to get up in arms over a debate regarding the lore of a video game of all things...and it's perfectly possible for people to simply agree to disagree instead of regurgitating the exact same arguments every time Garlemald happens to be mentioned as a point of discussion.

As far as I'm concerned there's not enough information present to say with certainty that Garlemald lacks any justification for their actions. I also don't believe that real world morals should be forced upon fantasy races, organisations and individuals. It just makes for a dull, boring narrative. If anything, it's the protagonists who are consistently excused and shrouded in plot armour; not the antagonists.

Personally I'm rather fond of gritty elves. It's a real shame that they've been gutted and had much of their culture eroded away so that they can adhere to real world morality rather than their sense of morality. It happened in WoW with blood elves and night elves. It happened in ESO with the Altmer. It happened in FFXIV with Ishgardians...and whilst Garleans aren't elves I'm rather fond of them and it will, no doubt, happen with them as well.

It doesn't matter if fantasy races aren't justified from our perspective. What matters is if they're justified from their perspective - and that is what should matter most. Otherwise the fantasy genre will continue to stagnate.

Morality is much more complicated and subjective than many here give credit to. So either we can agree to disagree or perhaps those who appear to be overly frustrated can make use of the ignore functionor something since I'm very unlikely to change my mind on this particular subject.

I could go off on a tangent about how it's also completely subjective as to how people read into various characters as well but that would require quite a bit of effort. One person may sympathise with Nanamo, for instance, whilst someone else considers her to be a complete and utter fool. Some may want her dead, others alive...and then there's all manner of other factors to read into and form opinions on. That's...generally how these things work so it's a shame for the same select few to shout down any and all opinions and 'reads' that are to the contrary of what they happen to believe.

Originally Posted by Theodric

Personally I'm rather fond of gritty elves. It's a real shame that they've been gutted and had much of their culture eroded away so that they can adhere to real world morality rather than their sense of morality. It happened in WoW with blood elves and night elves. It happened in ESO with the Altmer. It happened in FFXIV with Ishgardians...and whilst Garleans aren't elves I'm rather fond of them and it will, no doubt, happen with them as well.

It doesn't matter if fantasy races aren't justified from our perspective. What matters is if they're justified from their perspective - and that is what should matter most. Otherwise the fantasy genre will continue to stagnate.

But Ishgard culture was literally built on a lie the got exposed, if it had stayed the same what would have been the point? It isn't even about morality real or fantasy, it's about what's logical and Ishgard not changing after what happened in Heavansward is not logical at all, just like it's not at all logical for us to ever be long term allies with present Garlemald considering the things they've done to the majority of are allies and us.

And if you think real world morals shouldn't be applied to the setting at all why did you try to come up with completely unsubstantiated reasons Garlemald could be justified like dead innocents? That's applying real world morality to vindicate them.

Originally Posted by Hinoto-no-Ryuji

its shades of grey comes from incorporating those things into its protagonist nations (as the setting allows), but it balances them by giving their leaders otherwise modern attitudes; its antagonists are routinely defined by things that modern morals find disagreeable. This is demonstrably not a neutral game in that regard.

"Modern morals" = received doctrine on the majority of those topics, as little of it comes from anything resembling a "moral" system, or even a factual examination of these topics, since most academics are embedded in what is effectively a self-flagellation/grievance industry. It is just a doctrine of original sin.

It is a good thing I don't subscribe to this game on account of the quality of its storytelling, as that is a mistake with any MMO, this one included. Its quality is on par with very explicitly SJW pieces of work. I think Theodric is quite right to address this as an echo chamber of virtue signalling.

Originally Posted by Theodric

I see this place continues to be an echo chamber for the self righteous, unfortunately.

Sorry for the delay - my computer is being stupid and obstinate and refusing to keep a network connection. Anyhoo, I originally had something longer drafted but think I'll discard it in favor of cutting to the chase.

People aren't regurgitating arguments at you, they are regurgitating facts, known truths. They're not points of contention. We know to be true that:

• Garelmald's motivation for conquest is essentially "because we can."
• Conquered peoples aren't even given basic citizenship unless they serve 20 years in the military.
• Conquered peoples are liable to be forcefully conscripted.
• Garlean footsoldiers (mostly conscripts) are liable to be executed for minor infractions.
• Most pureblood Gareleans are almost blatantly racist against non-Garleans.
• Garlemald responds to revolts against their rule with brutal, unnecessary force.
• Garlemald is trying to recreate Allag despite the myriad problems they left behind and the known dangers of toying with Allagan stuff.
• A recent development under Varis' rule, but the Garleans would sooner genocide the beast tribes than try and find a peaceful solution to the Primal issue.
• As icing on the cake, Garlemald takes freedom of religion away from conquered peoples.

"But maybe they have a justification for this!" you have said. No. Nothing justifies all this. It's understandable - they consider themselves most powerful and thus capable of doing whatever they want - but there is a vast difference between being understandable and being justifiable (not to mention that very same hubris is what led to the fall of Allag).

Now, you may avoid applying conventional morality to the Garleans... but most people won't, and the game doesn't really either.

Agree to disagree if you wish. But this is the known truth, not argument, and your defense of the Garlean Empire is one part willfully ignorant of their unsavory points and the other highly hypothetical. People are going to disagree as a matter of course.

Trying to diffuse the situation ( as I prefer that this topic don't get locked).... While I love a good, heated debate let's not try to slug dirt at the poster's who present their ideas. Though, good discussion guys just please remember we're tawkin' about some fantasy finals! You know the fantasy finals we all play and question the lore use of link pearls!!

I really love your guys thoughts on the subject manner, and wish I could contribute more wisely--but I am not good at lore--so I read and make threads and hope it starts a discussion I can take insight from!!!
Anyway Im back for the time being since for long periods I can't log into the forums so I can respond to topics and drabblings. lol.
nervous laughing aside..

( Also I am finally able to log into the forums again damnit can anyone explain why I get locked out lol)