I guess it's time

[Fricca]

FFXIV is also a game that likes to move forward, not milk the same piece of content for years.

I'm honestly very happy for you if you truly feel this way.

I held back on replying to this thread, but I feel like saying something now..

Let me just describe why I loved this game back when I was new:

1. The system was fresh. First game I've ever played where I had to dodge and do mechanics at the same time as a healer.. as opposed to just mindlessly topping people/tanks off and providing buffs as most of the games I've played enforced. I actually had to completely erase the habit of always having people topped off-- because I realized that timing is everything in this game, you need to have a good set of priorities to play optimally.

2. Having my relic actually meant something. It meant that I was skilled enough to finish all of the primals back then.... and it didn't feel like a looooong painstaking, mind-numbing grind.. it was the complete opposite, it was a lot of fun!

3. Having my relic increased my chances of doing BCoB even though I was new and was still learning the game. Relics back then wasn't just "weapons for casuals that have a lot of time on their hands". (I'm sorry if this isn't the case for you, but for me and for some of the people I know, relics were reduced to that idea) It wasn't just the "convenient way" of getting a weapon that's strong enough, it actually mattered for raiding. These days I feel like they try to make it seem like we have a lot of content by making some of the primal weapons relevant/strongest at a given time (like ravana and seph weapons were) and then release the relic to make us grind again for it as an alternative to the final turn weapon in the current raid content....

This way SE made me feel that they were releasing content one at a time, each time offering a slightly higher ilvl reward, just to make us grind and say we have something to do.... as opposed to making it a necessary step to take in order to reach a greater reward (which was the relic back then).

4. Player interactions were a whole lot better. People were actually willing to teach and take you through instances/primals etc. Why? Because in the end you can get your relic and you would be a good candidate to raid with. What's the difference now? Its either you clear x primal once and pray to god your weapon drops, convince 7 other people to grind the same content with you (slim chance without a static), sit and wait for the relic to come out to get a good weapon, pray to god that a static will take you in with your current gear/weapon, or not raid at all.

5. People were actually driven by the story to clear current content. Everyone that I know would tell me Alex is so boring, Alex is bland, Alex is a piece of sh*t, etc... Personally, I have no problem with the turns themselves because everything is fun as a healer... But I understand where my friends are coming from. Back when we first saw Heavensfall on T9, we were so amazed and surprised-- it was something we haven't seen before. The stage turned dark and welcomed a new set of mechanics. Back on T13 everyone was happy they finished all turns and got to watch the ending. All the time we spent raiding felt very rewarding.

With the system we have right now, you get an idea of what's going to happen in Savage by clearing Normal Mode, plus you get to finish the story... For a lot of people that takes away the level of excitement they get after a long brawl with a boss in an instance because they know the reward that they'll be getting is just the gear, which will be replaced by the next update.

tl;dr: I feel like they've stripped away a lot the fun elements I loved and enjoyed in this game. Player interaction is getting lower and lower each update with the new materia melder and Normal Modes. Before, I would log in excited to meet new people and help them clear content that they need (not just some alternative to a harder content)... Now everything feels like it has to be done with a static because nobody interacts anymore. The game is not producing any new skilled players this way (unsyncing aside).

[Thayos]

Now everything feels like it has to be done with a static because nobody interacts anymore. The game is not producing any new skilled players this way (unsyncing aside).

This is another reason why I'm excited about Deep Dungeons, and also another reason why I was so upset by the Diadem's failure.

A big weakness of this game has always been its structured 8-man content, which encourages statics and discourages more casual linkshell and FC groups, which is what people who came from FFXI were accustomed to. Given this game's emphasis on Free Companies, it has always baffled me that the game never had more meaningful content that pick-up groups in FCs could do without needing to form exclusionary statics.

Deep Dungeons should be more accessible by in-game friends who don't have the time to form statics. So should Diadem, if SE can properly fix it. When Diadem first launched, my FC was looking forward to regularly occurring runs for whoever could show up at certain times (with no static strings attached). But the content sucked so bad that everyone immediately lost interest -- it just wasn't fun.

The only people in my FC who kept up with Diadem were the people who were in a savage raiding static, and they only did it for the drops. But they absolutely hated the content.

4. Player interactions were a whole lot better. People were actually willing to teach and take you through instances/primals etc. Why? Because in the end you can get your relic and you would be a good candidate to raid with. What's the difference now? Its either you clear x primal once and pray to god your weapon drops, convince 7 other people to grind the same content with you (slim chance without a static), sit and wait for the relic to come out to get a good weapon, pray to god that a static will take you in with your current gear/weapon, or not raid at all.

Yes, yes, yes! Totally agree. And you do a great job of showing why SE screwed up by tuning this game's endgame too far toward raiding. In a casual/midcore game with a social infrastructure built around Free Companies, it makes no sense to have endgame be focused on eight-man content that's by far more efficient in statics with strict membership requirements. THIS is the game's biggest weakness.

[Zojha]

Deep Dungeons should be more accessible by in-game friends who don't have the time to form statics.

Do consider that Deep Dungeon will only have two save-states and in order to continue a save-state, the group members must be the same as when the save-state was made. Unless deep dungeon can be cleared within one session, it will be mini-static content.

[Klongol]

Let me just describe why I loved this game back when I was new

Everything seems so great when it's new, right? When I first started playing EverQuest in 1999 I was whisked into a new world entirely. Learning my class was a challenge. Learning where to gear up, or how to get platinum (the in game currency) was fun. Exploring and trying new camps to earn experience was exhilarating. Meeting new people and striving for the same goals was amazing fun. Learning to fight large bosses and compete for the rights to their loot was a thrill and a half.

The thing is... that feeling eventually wore off. I still liked playing EQ, but that "Back then" feeling never returned. I've even tried to play on so-called progression servers to try and get that feeling back. The nostalgia rush comes, but the feeling never remains. It's gone. I've experienced it. The same experiences will not ever have that same feeling again

In short, to expect the same feelings as you did when you first started, and to hope to experience the same emotions in the act is foolish. They took a different route with the Relic this time, but even if they took the same route the feeling wouldn't be the same. It would be old news. It was all so fresh back then. Now, you're experienced. You know what to expect. You've been playing the game long enough to know your way through all the of the game's mechanics. The fact of the matter is that it's totally normal to have that happen. There's nothing wrong with the game becoming familiar. it's bound to happen no matter what game you play.

EQ's core game never changed. They made improvements (Alternate Advancement, Faster travel, added classes and zones, improved gear and stats, Higher levels) but the game itself was still the same: Get with 40 other people. Set up a healing rotation. Main tank tanks the boss, damage dealers DPS, healers top people off, defeat the boss. Group mechanics stayed the same too: Get 6 people (1 tank, 1 healer, 1 CC, 3 dps), find an area with a high population of mobs, sit there and kill the same mobs repeatedly for experience.

The issue with this entire thread is that those claiming "the boring same routine" is killing this game are asking for the devs to fundamentally change the ENTIRE GAME to suit their fancy. It's no going to happen. The core will always remain.. as it has in every other MMO before it (except 1.0). It would be foolish to change it AGAIN when they have a working model now. We can all hope for improvements, as EQ did over the years... But to hope for that same old "feeling" is an exercise in futility. That same feeling will likely never return.

Here's hoping the devs are working on some neat things to pique our interest in 4.0. in the mean time, I'm going to keep playing here in 3.x. I like logging in daily to do dungeons. I like the theme park this world is set in, and I enjoy the content they release on the regular.

[panderin]

This "balance above all" is actually killing game. All classes play the same. Nothinbg is unique. Zero theorycrafting. Why not make everything equally unequal? For example, trial A is best for blms, trial B is best for drgs and etc The game would get so much more depth in instant.

I have been keeping up with this thread partially because I am genuinely curious about what others think as I only log on to do my mog tribe stuff atm. Plus the mention of XI makes me all warm and fuzzy inside (I miss it so much).

Overall I just think this actually hits the nail on the head and would be so amazing to experience in this game.

[Thayos]

Do consider that Deep Dungeon will only have two save-states and in order to continue a save-state, the group members must be the same as when the save-state was made. Unless deep dungeon can be cleared within one session, it will be mini-static content.

That does kind of suck, but if you can re-enter with randoms without eating a save space, then that would be good.

Even so, just the option to have a four-person static will be a nice break from the requirement to have eight people. It would be much, much easier to find three other people and ONLY have to worry about scheduling without any job or iLevel requirements.

This "balance above all" is actually killing game. All classes play the same. Nothinbg is unique. Zero theorycrafting. Why not make everything equally unequal? For example, trial A is best for blms, trial B is best for drgs and etc The game would get so much more depth in instant.

And I think this is where you'll find so many people to be evenly divided (I happen to enjoy this game's emphasis on balance, even though I do understand its costs). But I totally respect where you're coming from and I'm not at all dismissive of this train of thought. It's legit.

I wish we had separate threads about this and the game's disconnect between endgame and social infrastructure.

[odintius]

The issue with this entire thread is that those claiming "the boring same routine" is killing this game are asking for the devs to fundamentally change the ENTIRE GAME to suit their fancy.

Umm no I think people realize that balance is require and people like you also go to there own extremes and say people want everything to change 180 degrees throttle it back some. EQ had more depth to it when it first release then ffxiv had since 2.0 IMO are you suggesting the dev aren't capable of adding a more rewarding experience and change the formula slightly to were currrently it just catch up gear/exp patches?

[Fricca]

The core will always remain..

They changed the core. They are making a lot of things feel less rewarding.

Here's hoping the devs are working on some neat things to pique our interest in 4.0.

No. They are working on more sleep poses. Please look forward to it.

[Klongol]

are you suggesting the dev aren't capable of adding a more rewarding experience and change the formula slightly to were currrently it just catch up gear/exp patches?

I am not suggesting they aren't capable of mixing things up. I am suggesting that the level of "difference" the hardcores here in this thread are looking for is probably not in the cards for the devs.

EverQuest to this day still has a raid heavy scene, though it's now instanced. Despite this, EQ has been doing it's best to make the game more accessable to more people for the sake of their sub base. Back in my EQ prime I was the crème of the crop when it came to warriors. I was the best of the best, and the time I spent getting there was massive. The problem is that even though I felt like a snowflake and the game catered to my whims, it didn't to the majority of people. The difficulty curve in PoP was massive. The expansion even LOCKED PEOPLE OUT OF ZONES (like FFXI) if you weren't able to join enough people to clear certain content (even though you had paid for access to the expansion). This attitude eventually led to the decline of the game as a whole. It's definitely now just a shadow of it's former self...

And for good reason! A game needs to be accessible to most people to maintain subs. If people feel excluded, they won't pay for the privileged to play the game.

In short I understand why the devs have taken the route they have. They hope to keep people subscribed by offering content fairly regularly on a vertical line and install catch up mechanics fairly frequently so MOST people can experience it all. The days where a person like myself can hold the "I'm better than you" card out there are gone in the MMO world. Gotta make those $$$.

Do I think some more challenging content should be made available? Yes. Do I think the rewards need to be tweeked? Yes. Do I feel like the game's current position is terrible? No... But there's always room for improvement.

[RobbieH]

I am suggesting that the level of "difference" the hardcores here in this thread are looking for is probably not in the cards for the devs.

You might be right, but that's because they're playing it safe.

I saw people quit during 2.1 and never come back, and everyday i kept seeing my friends list having less and less people online even on peak hours.

Most raiders already left, and they keep leaving.

People keep calling raiders a minority, but i suppose they forget the amount of raiders that have been leaving over the years, if most raiders leave of course it's a minority.

And if no changes are made i'm afraid that's it for this game, it doesn't even matter if casuals or mid cores are happy, simply because i've seen every kind of plyer complain their friends left which will led to them leaving too sooner or later, it's simply not healthy for the game.