I guess it's time

[Yasuhiro]

snip

see the second post I made.

[RiceisNice]

yah it's what I mentioned in the other parts I'm content with keeping it as is but adding in more hybrid jobs like Bard. (I never played Bard but people say it's a hybrid job) I suppose proposing a what if scenario would be best life if it was like it from the start.

What do you bring a BRD for when it comes to dungeons and raids? If you answered DPS, then you just defined it's role. Nearly every job has some form of utility that it's encouraged to have a diverse composition; you can't have anyone substitute what a DRG can bring for example.

[Yasuhiro]

What do you bring a BRD for when it comes to dungeons and raids? If you answered DPS, then you just defined it's role. Nearly every job has some form of utility that it's encouraged to have a diverse composition; you can't have anyone substitute what a DRG can bring for example.

I don't even play Bard, don't even know its actions. Just going off what people have told me when I ask "what does this thing the bard casts do?" and they say its a support ability. I don't even wanna argue about this. I know nothing about bard so I don't want to pretend I know what I'm talking about if it's not a hybrid class of support and dps then sorry for my ignorance.

[RiceisNice]

I don't even play Bard, don't even know its actions. Just going off what people have told me when I ask "what does this thing the bard casts do?" and they say its a support ability. I don't even wanna argue about this. I know nothing about bard so I don't want to pretend I know what I'm talking about.

Well, your DRG has abilties like disembowel and battle illianity, while also having access to mantra. What do you feel those debuffs do? It not only improves your personal performance, but the party as well. BRD and MCH have full access to dps abilties as well, but rather than having something like crit buff, they have mana/tp regen which still helps the party. But you'd still be bringing those jobs to fill in the primary purpose of a dps, because that's what they are made to do.

You can just take a quick look at what abilities they gain as they level; Out of their 16+ skills, only 4 would truly be considered as something that effect people that isn't just themselves, and the first one isn't gained until level 30; the rest is dps skills. MCH doesn't get their regen until 42, and their damage reduction abilties like dismantle mirrors that of virus and storm's path. Likewise as BRD, you'd bring a MCH to fill in the role of a dps with the party composition in mind, much like how you'd bring in a warrior or DRG to fill in the role of tank or dps, but keeping in mind of what they bring to the table. That's sort of why a true-support job wouldn't work in the current deisgn, it'd start to compete with existing slots unless they redesign all instanced content to require larger groups and encounters with them in mind.

[Yasuhiro]

Didn't think of it that way actually. Guess the holy trinity is fine as in then since everything is playing the support role. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Vantol]

Speaking in FFXIV terms if we actually had a true relic in here it should include;

a) Killing the highest raid tier multiple times (x10).
b) Getting the drop (?? item) from the same turn with a very low drop rate.
c) Getting another drop (?? item) from a secondary end game content with the same difficulty level (highest tier) such dynamis.
d) Including high amount of gils in the process.
e) Pushing the exploration, open world contents; collecting items around the world in extremely dangerous areas (raid team required to get through them).
f) Getting highest tier crafters together (those few around if we had a decent crafting system) in order to craft the item itself and to pull overmelds.

Not even the first step should be reachable by casual players with the relic being the highest tier weapon in game raiders slowly gonna collect, step by step.

So much this! I hate the way relic is handled in this game with passion! Relic should be the strongest weapon that only a few people of millions possess. Our current "relic" is "artifact" weapon at best.

[ADVSS]

Ok, the underlying questions to this support class nonsense. What can a support class provide that you can't just put on another role and be done with it?

Also, if their support is all they have, there's a balancing issue, if the support is less than 1 dps class then it will be a leper. If it does more, it's a requirement and needs to be entirely balanced around. If it's the same or equivalent, then it is pointless.

if they define "support" as bard/mch/newjob" then itll be a low tier but decent dps. Then they just jack the raids to be like gordias anyway, and or nerf healers damage output because like tanks - "theyre not a D_S.!!!!" They could do it in tons of ways, not justifying that they should, just examples. Itd be incredibly difficult to carry through story as a job that relies other characters to deal its damage, you wouldnt get through story if it was

[RiceisNice]

if they define "support" as bard/mch/newjob" then itll be a low tier but decent dps. Then they just jack the raids to be like gordias anyway, and or nerf healers damage output because like tanks - "theyre not a D_S.!!!!" They could do it in tons of ways, not justifying that they should, just examples. Itd be incredibly difficult to carry through story as a job that relies other characters to deal its damage, you wouldnt get through story if it was

Their dps isn't that far back behind though, and even then they're far from the only jobs that arguably have party support abilties. Not to mention on record developers have attributed BRD's relatively lower dps to their "support" (which is double dipping anyway since use of said support already lowers their damage to begin with) or their mobility (with this being their recent statement). It's gotten to the point that it's not worth putting out a support label because I feel that even the developers don't know what they truly want BRD (and MCH) to be, beyond the game objectively labeling them as a dps role.

[Iromi]

Didn't think of it that way actually. Guess the holy trinity is fine as in then since everything is playing the support role. Thanks for clearing that up.

Lol everything is playing support and DD...fun! But not really XD This is the only MMORPG I've played that has no support dedicated class...annnnd support is my favorite.

Don't get me started on the "pet" class >.< Oh well, I guess people enjoy having every job feel sameish...heh, my main is SMN and I've had all my jobs maxed since 2011..however I finally took a lot of them to 60, MNK feels like a melee SMN, and war feels a bit like SMN in some ways too...anyway, everything feels the same to me. Not really diggin it. I know..they'll never change it and add a true pet class because "outdated" etc or some astonishing logic.

[DPZ2]

So much this! I hate the way relic is handled in this game with passion! Relic should be the strongest weapon that only a few people of millions possess. Our current "relic" is "artifact" weapon at best.

Relic weapons are the means by which all of those non-Raiding members of the MMO can get a good looking weapon with a decent iLevel. It is definitely not the Best-in-Spec, nor is it intended as such.

The reason it is called a Relic is because it recreates an historical weapon of renown.