Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Iromi]

1.23 had a perfect balance of vertical + horizontal stuff. There was no ilvl, interesting stats and diversity. If they did it then they can do it again.

Also what's this about healers not needing to dps, is there any videos of raids where healers do not have to dps?

[Khalithar]

Also what's this about healers not needing to dps, is there any videos of raids where healers do not have to dps?

I think the "healers not having to dps" thing is either from players from other MMO's that are used to only having to heal and nothing else (I was one of them, but as I got more confident/comfortable healing in this game I started dpsing a lot more) or players that have read Yoshi's thing where he says they do not balance content around healers having to dps and assuming that means they shouldn't have to dps ever. But that particular topic has gone back and forth lots of times already in lots of threads, it doesn't need to be discussed again!

[GavynG]

I am 100% with the OP on this.

We want more RPG elements is what he's asking for. Customization options that can affect the way you play and make it more interesting.

[HeavenlyArmed]

What you're asking for is not a simple stat adjustment, but a whole new stat itself. Such entails redesigning the entire game's structure to accommodate for these changes. Old content needs to be rebalanced, new content has to add in this extra variable to "keep stats interesting" as you've so eloquently implied. A better example would them adding Rogue, which the devs have said became such an enormous drain on both their resources and the team itself, they will never do classes again outside of an expansion.

Furthermore, traits, buffs and etc have been mentioned throughout this thread. Those are not "very easy" implementations either. You're presuming they need change a few bits of code, some numbers and voila. Now if it code were ever so simple.

Try reading the examples. Older content needs readjusting if you add a stat at endgame of 4.0? Because that makes complete sense, and they totally care about how stat adjustments fit old content, right? That's why A4S became unclearable to some players after the VIT adjustments? Now, as for your argument that these aren't, as I claim, very easy adjustments, no they aren't. But you know what? Neither is most of the other coding that goes into this game. My point is that this is not nearly the amount of work that you assume, where it would take this extremely exaggerated amount of time to implement for an expansion. They've done adjustments before, even widescale ones, and never delayed anything as a result. But you think adding a new stat to endgame would do that because... Rogue was a massive drain to implement? Jeez, I wonder why you have to go with an example that actually did involve adjustments to gear and required a lot of work from a number of different teams rather than something that is entirely back-end in how it would need to be implemented. I guess it's because it's the only example you can give, and guess what, 2.4 wasn't delayed, so it still doesn't prove your argument anyway.

The irony here is astounding. Your entire post presumes to ignore people will not follow along with an established norm despite them doing precisely that even when provided with some degree of customization. We can choose our attributes-- both personal and in the latest Anima step. No one does. Instead, they ask "what stats should I allocate?" And are told which scales best. You cannot ignore this variable because it doesn't suit your argument.

Not relevant to the part you quoted, and I already explained how there are ways this can be countered. Not that you ever read them, but they are there.

I do love how you completely gloss over the notion "casual" players may actually invest more time into this game than their "hardcore" counterparts, yet then presume they would have any interest in the system that ultimately serves little purpose to them. People who are not dedicated raiders will not care about stat allocation for the most part. They want actual new content like Deep Dungeon, The Aquapolis, an improved Diadem, more things to craft, and yes, glamour.

And this takes away from none of that. In the same way that we didn't lose content in Heavensward despite all of our secondary stats being reworked nor did we lose content in 3.2 because of the VIT changes. You can try to claim that because this is a new stat it'd be entirely different and more similar to something that requires multiple different teams working on it like implementing Rogue did, but you won't get very far doing so. And while a lot of them might not have any desire for a new stat or anything like that, it wouldn't have any harmful effects for them either. Toxicity? Already exists, this wouldn't make it any worse. Confusion? Minimized by putting it at endgame, and then you can't argue this anyway if you're going to say that players won't care regardless or will follow whatever other people suggest them to.

And even amongst the raid community itself, people do not unanimously agree horizontal progression is worthwhile. Most want the fights themselves to be more interesting.

Hey, guys? Apparently we don't find the fights in Midas to be interesting enough. Huh, this is the most mechanically praised tier so far and most people wouldn't want mechanical complexity of fights to get any higher because it'd be overly daunting? But that can't be right, this guy on the forums who hasn't even touched the content told me so! Don't make raid arguments when you haven't done the content. And once again, I doubt you'll find many raiders who are against the idea of gear that's at least superficially more interesting from a gameplay perspective.

I don't even know where to begin with this. You've... completely ignored any form of context. I explicitly said my intent was BiS once I reached 60 on MNK. And the only reason I haven't done so yet is because the gear I already have outpaces all of the content I am currently participating in. Upgrading now wouldn't benefit me. That is not a counter example, but a direct adherence to the norm. I have worked out what is "best" relevant to where I am in the story. Anything more is overkill, and a gil loss.

So you worked out what was the best for what you're currently doing. You figured out on your own where you want your gear to be right now. You don't feel like going further because you don't see a need for it. And in a world where BiS is becoming an increasingly not cared about topic, you're still going to try and argue that this isn't an example of not caring about what the absolute best is and settling for something else because of reasons that I already explained as part of why the everyone will just go for the best argument fails?

But the takeaway remains people chose the most optimal approach and expected that of others. That has remained the crux of my point. STR vs VIT is merely an example of it. At the end of the day once people discover the most efficent way to do something, most will.

The expectation you claim was there was vastly overstated. In reality, most groups outside of the raid scene didn't care, and within the raid scene the content mandated it, so the choice actually didn't even exist. Yes, most people will work towards what is considered best to the best of their abilities. But to argue this as a reason for not even trying to give players who want a little something different something to try out falls flat. If this is how you really feel, then would you rather see secondary stats removed entirely as well? I mean, what's the difference, right? Everyone just goes for what's "best", why even have secondary stats at all? Except that idea sounds absurd.

Operative word: did. Gordias has since been nerfed, and therefore no longer requires healer DPS. To be fair, I should amend this to "most". Brute Justice isn't exactly forgiving. Nevertheless, the devs have expressly stated they do not take healer DPS into their damage calculations.

The devs also expressly stated that players who were having trouble with Machinist, Bard and Black Mage at the start of Heavensward just needed to practice more with those jobs at 60 to see their performance improve, before eventually buffing all of them to either make the damage floor higher or make the damage ceiling easier to hit. And they expressly stated that Warrior in 2.0 was just fine before completely reworking the job in 2.1. And they expressly stated that Savage SCoB was the original untuned versions of those encounters despite there very clearly being a trend towards preventing the "cheese strats" that appeared in the regular versions of the fights which would imply they were adjusted after watching players in the normal versions. So I'd take most comments about tuning with a grain of salt. Not that this is relevant to the argument anyway.

How odd. You discredit anecdotal evidence with... anecdotal evidence.

No, I pointed out that it's just as easy to point out how since there is no absolute, the anecdotal evidence can be used for either side and not actually prove anything.

If you look over at Youtube, you won't find any videos of difficult content clears where Healers aren't DPSing.

Well, nothing recent, anyway. If you look back far enough it's there, though.

In fact, you'll be hard-pressed to find pure healers period. What you will find is plenty of complaining whenever healers refuse to DPS. There's even a thread now about it. And it isn't a small groan. Almost... because it isn't. Most players expect healers to DPS. Which falls in line with my point; people find the most efficient way to complete an objective... and expect everyone to do it. You'll get some leeway in leveling content, but relevant stuff? Not so much.

Hmm, most players, you say? Weird how you keep asserting this in the exact same way you assume I think most players want horizontal progression. You can't argue that forum thread posters are a minority that doesn't represent most players and then proceed to argue that because a forum thread exists about something that it must be the general case. You bounce back and forth between most players won't care and you'll be forced into playing the way that people consider optimal and trying to use both as arguments for your side. And neither works. Not caring isn't an argument against because there is nothing that suggests that doing this will take away from anything else (and something like this is likely to happen anyway, again, considering removing accuracy), and being forced into just doing whatever is best isn't an argument because there will always be reasons people don't fall perfectly into line with that as you yourself act as an example of. Want to hear how many people I've seen break 1k dps in Final Steps of Faith? Not many, even though it was something I could do at the minimum item level on an off job. Want to know how many of them I've kicked? One, and it was because they weren't even trying to dodge basic mechanics, not because they were underperforming in damage. Not relevant enough content for you? Because that's the type of content most of the people who play this game do. Wanna know how many healers I've seen dps in there? Not many. Have I kicked any of them or even heard complaints about it? Nope. Obviously my sample size isn't massive, but if it were the issue you claimed it was I'd probably be seeing a lot more of it than I am.

In any case, we've come to an impasse. So I'll leave it at that.

We were at an impasse before you even spoke. You've not actually considered one argument leveled from the other side, and have proven that you're not willing to do so due to your own misguided fears about how it may happen if the other side were to get what it wants. I've shown you examples of why every fear you hold isn't reasonable, and explained why I don't see how there could possibly be downsides that are even close to what you claim, and your arguments against those are so flawed that I can't help but feel as though you're just determined to be against this no matter what.

1.23 had a perfect balance of vertical + horizontal stuff. There was no ilvl, interesting stats and diversity. If they did it then they can do it again.

Also what's this about healers not needing to dps, is there any videos of raids where healers do not have to dps?

Yes, though most of them are from SCoB and earlier. Also, healer dps isn't entirely required with higher gear levels in the highest content now, though it certainly helps.

[zosia]

What you're asking for is not a simple stat adjustment, but a whole new stat itself. Such entails redesigning the entire game'sstructure to accommodate for these changes. Old content needs to be rebalanced, new content has to add in this extra variable to "keep stats interesting" as you've so eloquently implied. A better example would them adding Rogue, which the devs have said became such an enormous drain on both their resources and the team itself, they will never do classes again outside of an expansion.

We already have gear effects on GC gear, the game structure does not need heavy modification to add interesting gear effects.

We already have game structures that allow the dev team to synch your gear, ignore certain stats, and ignore melds. All the old content simply needs the same switch applied to any new gear stats that might break any old content.

This drain on resources is not as huge of a problem as you make it out to be. It's also a terrible excuse to not change anything when the formula is getting stale and you only need to look to that strawpoll thread that the majority here on these forums want change. If the majority of the players want change, the minority, such as your self, need to suck it up and unserstand your unpopular opinion about the stale state of the game is just that, unpopular.

Furthermore, traits, buffs and etc have been mentioned throughout this thread. Those are not "very easy" implementations either. You're presuming they need change a few bits of code, some numbers and voila. Now if it code were ever so simple.

Just use the features from PvP and other synced dungeons to turn off gear bonuses, a tool already in-game, to avoid the 'complex' web of coding.

The irony here is astounding. Your entire post presumes to ignore people will not follow along with an established norm despite them doing precisely that even when provided with some degree of customization. We can choose our attributes-- both personal and in the latest Anima step. No one does. Instead, they ask "what stats should I allocate?" And are told which scales best. You cannot ignore this variable because it doesn't suit your argument.

Ofc people do that. But what if the relic had a proc effect? You know, some special effect that the zeta was supposed to have when we finished it? Man, every topic on these forums just reminds me of another thing the dev team back peddled on.

I do love how you completely gloss over the notion "casual" players may actually invest more time into this game than their "hardcore" counterparts, yet then presume they would have any interest in the system that ultimately serves little purpose to them. People who are not dedicated raiders will not care about stat allocation for the most part. They want actual new content like Deep Dungeon, The Aquapolis, an improved Diadem, more things to craft, and yes, glamour.

You are making brash assumptions that casual players don't care at all about optimization and gear effects. Based off of the poll thread in this forums, you're wrong so far. 75% of the votes so far want change. You are in the minority and your opinions don't matter anymore.

And even amongst the raid community itself, people do not unanimously agree horizontal progression is worthwhile. Most want the fights themselves to be more interesting.

See the strawpoll thread, The majority on these forums want change. You're the minority and your opinions are worth investing in on this topic.

I don't even know where to begin with this. You've... completely ignored any form of context. I explicitly said my intent was BiS once I reached 60 on MNK. And the only reason I haven't done so yet is because the gear I already have outpaces all of the content I am currently participating in. Upgrading now wouldn't benefit me. That is not a counter example, but a direct adherence to the norm. I have worked out what is "best" relevant to where I am in the story. Anything more is overkill, and a gil loss.

except most gear is free? How is that even a gil loss? Stop making excuses.

But the takeaway remains people chose the most optimal approach and expected that of others. That has remained the crux of my point. STR vs VIT is merely an example of it. At the end of the day once people discover the most efficent way to do something, most will.

That point does not mean we can't have set bonuses, more ring choices, a trinket slot, etc etc. There are so many improvements that could be implemented into the gear system and the only refute you can seem to come up with is "people won't want/like it!" Strawpoll says otherwise.

[DPZ2]

Strawpoll says otherwise.

A straw poll can gauge sentiment among a particular group of people at a particular point in time. If it is an internet-related straw poll, the results are only as good as the total number of people with opposing opinions who actually encounter it at the time.

The comment quoted is equivalent to saying "We held a vote while you weren't around. Too bad for you."

A recent 'straw poll' result that was meaningless: Michelle Bachman and Ron Paul were the top 'winners' in the 2011 Iowa Presidential straw poll.

[Dalvy]

+1 to the OP

There are so many raiders who have quit because of the lack of attention given to ride in 3.0. Truly this is the expac of the crafter/gatherer.

People nowadays just sub for a month after patch, then unsub when it falls back into the droll tomestone/raid token grind. That translates to a sub droop immediately after patch release, which means the player pool gets smaller and queue times for fsrm/old content go up.

I personally would want to see more engaging side activities as we are progressing through the main content. Lets face it--craft/gather is boring and not for everyone, and diadem being a bust proves it.

[zosia]

A straw poll can gauge sentiment among a particular group of people at a particular point in time. If it is an internet-related straw poll, the results are only as good as the total number of people with opposing opinions who actually encounter it at the time. The comment quoted is equivalent to saying "We held a vote while you weren't around. Too bad for you."

A recent 'straw poll' result that was meaningless: Michelle Bachman and Ron Paul were the top 'winners' in the 2011 Iowa Presidential straw poll.

It's representative as a sample of Forum opinions. It shows that its very likely that the general forum opinion is such that at least more than 50% of the active players on the forum want a change. Right now the poll shows 3/4 players want change. I am giving you a +/-25% margin to work with there, waaaaaay generous. It's pretty obvious the majority of active forum users are tired of the stale formula and anyone who wants to keep the current state of things for years to come is the minority opinion.

As we all know here on these forums from how raiders are treated, minorities and their opinions don't matter. Suck it up, the majority of players on these forums, a place where SE gathers player feedback, want a more complex gear system than we have now.

Really at this point, it's just time to /popcorn as we watch what was once an active player base of 1M subscribers drop to 900k, 800k, 700k, 600k, etc. As this game careen's down the pipes, I can at least take satisfaction in watching bad decision after bad decision unfold doing more and more damage to this game.

Yeah, lets change nothing, lets see how many players we have a year out from now. LOLOLOL there is going to be like 3 people playing this game.

[DPZ2]

To reiterate my first response to the OP ...

The only thing I will pass along is "Have fun with what you have, if you can. Express your desires, but know they can not be accommodated immediately. Test other waters."

[EdwinLi]

I'm running out of popcorn. Oh wait...



As much we want our voice heard here never forget that we are still only one section of the forums. There is still the other language sections that must also voice their own opinions along with our own as any change or additions to the game will affect them as well.