Alienation of Dedicated and Skilled players

[Reinha]

For example, if Bismarck dropped this cool cleaving weapon, Ravana dropped a dot weapon, Thordan dropped a threat weapon, Sephirot dropped a spawn weapon and Nidhogg dropped a weapon that radiates healing to everyone. If I like the idea of being a passively cleaving melee and obtain that weapon when it comes out in the first patch, what am I supposed to do in the next patches when there are no upgrades I like for a weapon? If you make one weapon better than the others and give a reason to run the next fights, it becomes vertical progression.

The nature of horizontal progression is that less people run multiple pieces of content, because they are only aiming for one or two pieces of gear out of many options, instead of obtaining each option to continuously increase their power (vertical progression). We can't swap gear in combat and we have restricted inventory space so people would feel discouraged to run all the content for rewards and get all the different pieces if they are the same strength. This means less groups running each piece of content, unless you make it take a very long time to obtain your desired piece (the same people would run that instance/content more which would populate said instance/content).

No one in favor of horizontal progression has answered this yet. What to do when all you get every patch are just sidegrades instead of upgrades and you are already happy with what you have? A change that supposedly makes pve interesting actually gives us less reason to do content and leaves us nothing but vanity to chase.

[zosia]

How is having items with something like "heal potency up" different from just having more mind? It's exactly the same thing so again nothing has changed."Oh yeah DRG you need Spikes Armband of Piercing because it increases your damage"
"Oh yeah BRD you need Sirens Ring of Screehing because it makes your song's drain less MP"

etc

Because you are picking an arbitrary example, one that suits your argument. There could be effects like, "Gain 5% mana back from your heals." Cherry picking the more boring example does not really prove your point.

So if there is pre-ordained setups made by the community where is the choice people always talk about like it's the answer to everyones prayers? How is it going to change the way DRG plays (for example)? You are still going to be doing the same thing as a DRG is right now just with what amounts to basically an glamour (but instead a glamour of stats).

It's all just an illusion but this illusion is intrinsically toxic to MMO communities and therfore - Do not want at all.

So these minor things people are saying they want do not change a thing unless there is a complete overhaul of the game mechanically so again - Do not want at all.

Even with preset builds, people choose to tailor their playing experience around the flavors of choice they like. For example, the same argument you made has always been used against talents in wow. Wow talents give you a bit more choice because most of the choices are minor. In most instances, it's only the final few talents that sort of force your hand with what builds you are using.

Also, why is the illusion of choice toxic to MMOs? That seems like a pretty brash statement without backing it up.

Also, we already have gear effects and set bonuses, go check your GC vendor before you assume we need some game overhaul to add gear depth.

How about you instead you explain how those stats will actually affect gameplay instead of everyone dodging the question? Because you are saying it should affect mine since such changes will effect everyone. It's one far simpler to answer to the one you have just asked and is relevent to this actual game not ones of yesteryear. Neither am I interested in looking back with rose tinted glasses and saying "things where so much better back in the day". One I was a teenager with far more time on my hands and two I'm interested in the now.

If there is a decent answer I might then agree if there isn't then I probably won't. The fact no-one has answered it does nothing to change my mind (something I am quite happy to do).

We only need to turn our eyes to WoW to see that gear sets and horizontal progression don't cause toxicity, it does not cause the sky to fall, and the last I checked their servers did not spontaneously combust. People like set bonuses. People like weapons with unique effects. It has always been well received in other MMO's.

There, I provided you a game where gear depth accomplishes a lot of positives in respect to game play and player motivation. Where is your example of an MMO tragically hurt by more interesting gear options?

It's one thing to be skeptical. It's another thing to deny suggestions based upon your "nature".

QFTx10000

No one in favor of horizontal progression has answered this yet. What to do when all you get every patch are just sidegrades instead of upgrades and you are already happy with what you have? A change that supposedly makes pve interesting actually gives us less reason to do content and leaves us nothing but vanity to chase.

The only rewards in this game are vanity. You only need to wait for the latest savage patch, buy the latest crafted gear, meld it and your effectively close to the ilvl cap. The gear treadmill in this game is already in such a state that content like Niddhog EX goes live with essentially vanity rewards.

If SE did horizontal progression like WoW, I would love it. Imagine if the niddhog weapons, being 235, actually had weapon effects and in the right hands those effects would make the weapons effectively ilvl 240/245 performance wise. That would be amazing.

[Zadist]

And I suppose this is the part where you tell me that the massive giant that is $E who even implemented a cash shop that people tote "can be used for new ffxiv stuff!!" (Even though we know where all those profits go *cough cough Ffxv cough cough*) Just don't have the funds to increase staffing yeah? And they need to modify jobs so that every. Single. Action. In. Every. Instance. Is not going to be broken and introduce new content... Hmm... I'm pretty sure that is what they do with expansions. Silly me.

[Underdog2204]

It's one thing to be skeptical. It's another thing to deny suggestions based upon your "nature".

I deny your suggestions because I just don't like them and you assume everyone needs to agree with you. Don't put your lot in with someone who is better at getting their point across than you without the "holier than thou" attitude your posts ooze.

Do you actually have something to contribute about the optimisation concern? No? I though not... It's just a post that doesn't really do anything apart from showcase that attitude I just mentioned.

We only need to turn our eyes to WoW to see that gear sets and horizontal progression don't causes toxicity, it does not cause the sky to fall, and the last I checked their servers did not spontaneously combust. People like set bonuses. People like weapons with unique effects. It has always been well received in other MMO's.

There, I provided you a game where gear depth accomplishes a lot of positives in respect to game play and player motivation. Where is your example of an MMO tragically hurt by more interesting gear options?

Well we are on different sides of the ball park here, I do not see WoW as a great community and didn't when I was a part of it. And would use it exactly as the example not to follow...

I've seen first hand how bad it can be when someone tries to do something a bit different.

[mirta000]

Even with preset builds, people choose to tailor their playing experience around the flavors of choice they like. For example, the same argument you made has always been used against talents in wow. Wow talents give you a bit more choice because most of the choices are minor. In most instances, it's only the final few talents that sort of force your hand with what builds you are using.

and every one of those choices matters not, if you're told by the community that you did a bad with your build and should do this instead if you want to be useful. WoW used to be very build heavy in vanilla, but over the years they streamlined a lot.

[DPZ2]

Also, why is the illusion of choice toxic to MMOs? That seems like a pretty brash statement without backing it up.

Your exposition on WoW talents today ignores its not-so-civil history. Back in the day we had real choice in talents. Problem was, it got so complicated that everyone either conformed to a set-list of talents or they didn't get to participate fully in content. That went for a lot of PuGs too.

Since there was a set-list, and everyone was expected to know it and believe it, there was no room for "flavors of choice" if you wanted to do content. That was the 'toxic' part.

The solution? Water talents down to the point where they don't make any difference.

FFXIV doesn't have talent trees. Perhaps that would satisfy the need for 'flavor'? Might be easier to implement than a complete rewrite of the DPS algorithms.

[zosia]

Your exposition on WoW talents today ignores its not-so-civil history. Back in the day we had real choice in talents. Problem was, it got so complicated that everyone either conformed to a set-list of talents or they didn't get to participate fully in content. That went for a lot of PuGs too.

Since there was a set-list, and everyone was expected to know it and believe it, there was no room for "flavors of choice" if you wanted to do content. That was the 'toxic' part.

The solution? Water talents down to the point where they don't make any difference.

FFXIV doesn't have talent trees. Perhaps that would satisfy the need for 'flavor'? Might be easier to implement than a complete rewrite of the DPS algorithms.

I am not trying to ignore it, I guess I just don't see optimization as toxic. If you want to raid with pugs back in the day, you had to conform to general standards. The rule is pretty much an MMO constant. IN every game, if you pug, you should play by generally accepted guidelines or face public scrutiny,

I don't want to bash people who want to play their own way. I like to play my own way and figure stuff out a bit on my own, so I play with like minded people. If I want to run some crazy build, I would never force it onto a random pug, that's just inconsiderate.

I know things in wow were intense back in the day, but there were still casual guilds who would not scrutinize every last thing you did. It was just a matter of finding like minded people to play with or conform to generally accepted play styles. Ofc my statement here does not apply well to broken specs, but that is another problem entirely.

and every one of those choices matters not, if you're told by the community that you did a bad with your build and should do this instead if you want to be useful. WoW used to be very build heavy in vanilla, but over the years they streamlined a lot.

People still like choice, even if it does not matter in the larger scheme. What if Ninja's had boots of the same ilvl and had to choose between moving 25% faster or using boots like a trinket to ignore knock backs for 10s. Neither of those choices are gaming breaking, but both could be extremely useful in different situations.

There are plenty of decent designs to be had, just because we do have examples of bad choices and cookie cutter builds does not mean that there is no path forwards for great horizontal progression. That's what we pay SE for after all, to design and maintain this game. I will not pretend here that I have all the ideas and solutions, I am sure the game developers at SE could cook up much better ideas.

[Lorielle]

No one in favor of horizontal progression has answered this yet. What to do when all you get every patch are just sidegrades instead of upgrades and you are already happy with what you have? A change that supposedly makes pve interesting actually gives us less reason to do content and leaves us nothing but vanity to chase.

There isn't any answer for that because not every piece of gear would be upgradable. Your gear would be situational at best if your example. But this doesn't have to be full blown vertical to horizontal progression as many people are trying to perceive it as. People see things differently. I personally want some variety in a DPS rotation. Some situation pieces could do that depending for example. Or say Nidhogg weapons have attributes to do bonus damage against Nidhogg(makes running him multiple times easier). It doesn't need to be huge or anything. There's plenty of ideas littered here. You just have to consider them and how it would work instead of outright disagreeing with it. Even then, it's not even solely based on horizontal progression or item customization. There's more issues with XIV than just that. This one just quickly becomes the hot topic each time.

I deny your suggestions because I just don't like them and you assume everyone needs to agree with you. Don't put your lot in with someone who is better at getting their point across than you without the "holier than thou" attitude your posts ooze.

Calm yourself. Your assumption of me assuming that is any better how? Which is far from the truth, but again...Perception. Clarification goes a long way. Tone down the hypocrisy a little bit. I have no qualms with people disagreeing and backing their statement with reasoning. But to say, "No it won't work because I don't like it" is a poor refute in any stance. You claim to be open minded but are quick to deny suggestions.

Now you can keep attacking me if you want or you can actually speak on a civil plain if you desire. I'll gladly combat you either way until someone wants to chime in.

[Drkdays]

LADIES PLEASE! There's plenty enough of me to go around. Sheath thy claws!

This forum is filling up faster than a post shoot super model at a Chinese restaurant!

[DPZ2]

stuff

Heavensward provided new content, new skills, and the same DPS algorithms. Those algorithms work in every instance of the game, from level 1 through level 60. The instance trash and bosses use them.

I've played through MMO Beta content enough to know that changes to the way damage is calculated can cause unintended consequences. That's one of the reasons I consider "throwing developers at a problem" is simplistic at best. That other MMO doesn't produce content for over a year when making such changes.

Seriously, would you be willing to actively subscribe while waiting that long? I know millions of players of another MMO who answered "no".

I know millions of players of FFXIV who are willing to pay for a subscription to play through content that is updated every 3 months. Who would you cater to?