Variance in player skill is hurting FFXIV's itemization design.

[Brian_]

I missed the part where I said HARD-CORE PROGRESSION raiding.

Just because the NA scene is currently in a state of disrepair where their mid-core and casual raiding population have been shredded to pieces by a complete and total lack of content that caters to them doesn't mean that they never existed.

But if people want to try and say raiding isn't the core aspect of this game, then remove EX-trials, remove 24-mans, remove Coil from your 2.X memory, and remove Alexander from HW. Instead, you can have more Diadem and more dungeons that you spam for weekly tomestones used to purchase now meaningless gear. You can have more Postal Moogle quests and more Beast Tribe grinds.

Look at the actual census data we have. More than half of the active 60s who cleared HW's story went on to clear Alexander. That's definitely not a minority. Even if we're looking at Savage, when looking at the JP bubble the SE devs reside in, they still had a ~7% clear-rate for A4S across all JP servers and a 16% clear rate on their largest server. That's just clear rate. That's not considering the much larger population that attempted the content. For content as difficult as A4S was, I'd say that a clear-rate that high probably represents a significantly larger raiding population.

But, returning to my point, it is about content with actual longevity and depth that can attract and retain players. For the content i listed -- Raiding, Crafting, and PvP, when the content finds its mark, it hooks people and keeps them playing the game for a long time. The same cannot be said for a lot of other content this game offers. I have not met a single person who is addicted to Lords of Verminion or Diadem and only logs on to queue for that. As such, I see no issue with further developing and incentivizing content that can retain players.

[Granyala]

I missed the part where I said HARD-CORE PROGRESSION raiding.

Sorry my dear but that and only that IS raiding.
I don't consider hopping into void ark or clearing Alex normal with DF randoms "raiding".

Raiding is done with a guild or a cooperation of guilds with an as static roster as possible an progress that spans over weeks if not months. That only applies to raiding savage/extremes(to a lesser extent) because everything else can be cleared with PuGs in one session.

It's no secret that the actual raiding content in FF has always been "barebones" and few in Encounter numbers. Which is why I perceive FF-XIV as a lot less raidcentric compared to WoW.

I do agree that the content for the lesser skilled but still organized "midcore" segment (comparable to WoWs heroic (former normal mode) raids) is currently missing, or rather underserved by getting one extreme mode primal per patch.

[Zojha]

Sorry my dear but that and only that IS raiding.

I must admit, I, too, kinda assumed "static" raiding was meant, not things that can be cleared within a week tops via pugs (Like EX trials/24 man raids/normal modes), as those... do not exactly have a whole bunch of longevity and therefore do not have the community building aspect to them.

As for the numbers on longevity raids, well...final coil clear rate was 4,5 on Gilgamesh IIRC, which was the top server out of all NA and EU combined. About 2% average. Far shot from the japanese chocobo at ~16% and like 10% overall. Unofficial numbers, unfortunately, but it fits the current scenario as well, so it might be valid. There's no doubt the raiding situation looks brighter in the JP bubble, but I'm still disinclined to consider it the core of the game. The core of the game is pug-content IMO.

[Brian_]

I think most people despise PuG content and DF/PF toxicity.

To me, the core of this game is small-community content. It's content that allows a group of friends that keep in contact through FC or LS to have fun and hopefully expand and sustain their clique. Dungeons are a bit too small and restricted due to role limits to really support a slightly larger group of friends. Savage raiding has moved away from that in a sense because you can no longer value friendship over skill if you want to progress whereas the difficulty of Coil was tuned to allow for a static of varying skill to clear. Though, if you can find a group of friends on the same page in terms of goals and skill, Savage is great.

So, I don't know why you would say things like EX-trials and Weeping City have no longevity. I frequently end up doing EX-trials to help friends clear / farm, and do Weeping City at least weekly for the materia / glamour or alt gear. Some of the most fun I get in this game is from going into Weeping with a full group of friends and just messing around. The content still has enough bite to keep you awake and it's easy enough to not be stressful. It's a good break from Savage.

[Zojha]

So, I don't know why you would say things like EX-trials and Weeping City have no longevity.

Because if I were to include them, I'd encounter an issue: Why exactly are hunts, dungeons and the diadem not included? Those, too, can be done with friends, two of them even with a larger group. Sure, they are easy enough to be pug'd, but so are EX trials/24 man/normal raids. And as we all know from Ozma wipes and whines, many people do in fact consider this difficulty rather stressful already.

And if you consider those to be a good break for Savage, wouldn't conversely dungeons be a good break from EX trials or normal raids for a less skilled person in the exact same manner? Perhaps the hunt zerg even be a good break from dungeons for even less skilled people? Would not all group content ultimately have the same effect to varying degrees?

[Brian_]

And if you consider those to be a good break for Savage, wouldn't conversely dungeons be a good break from EX trials or normal raids for a less skilled person in the exact same manner? Perhaps the hunt zerg even be a good break from dungeons for even less skilled people? Would not all group content ultimately have the same effect to varying degrees?

It's about variety and flexibility in content. Raid content can easily scale from entry-level raiding to hard-core raiding. As such, it has a much wider coverage and that's why I disagree with the notion it is niche and why I originally said it has the widest appeal. And, more importantly, it can build a bridge of progression that helps convert a casual into a core player. That doesn't exist with hunts. That doesn't exist in Diadem. It doesn't exist in dungeons because SE has said that with dungeons, their hands are tied in terms of design and difficulty.

Someone can get their feet wet in an EX-trial or Mhach and develop an appetite for more. I don't think hunts or Diadem lead anywhere progressive. Again, this goes back to my point about content breeding longevity. When the content I listed hits their mark, it hooks people.

Also, while we've seen SE have their moments with dungeon narratives, I think their dungeon narratives pale in comparison to their raid efforts. Coil, Crystal Tower, the Mhach series so far, and even Alexander all tell better stories and have larger experiences than just a dungeon. You just can't achieve the same scope with dungeon content -- even if it is sequential like the NM/HM dungeons.

[Granyala]

Also, while we've seen SE have their moments with dungeon narratives, I think their dungeon narratives pale in comparison to their raid efforts. Coil, Crystal Tower, the Mhach series so far, and even Alexander all tell better stories and have larger experiences than just a dungeon. You just can't achieve the same scope with dungeon content -- even if it is sequential like the NM/HM dungeons.

Of course you could.

After all the storytelling is 99% cutscene and 1% what happens during the raid encounter
Seriously, I found the trash bosses in Coil rather anticlimactic. "Here ya go raider, fight a random plant that is attacking you... because it can. DEFEND YOURSELF! /Klingon"

SE simply doesn't choose to do so. Why is anyone's guess, though I do think they wan to reserve the "epicness of story moments" for raids.

Look at relic, it's grindy and is nothing special. FFXI relic was grindy too but had some special effect to it. At least make relic unqiue and not some grind that barely gives any purpose.

I thought the purpose of the relic is a unique weapon model (some stages with nice particleFX) and stats being able to be chosen at your leisure.

[Seraphix2407]

I thought the purpose of the relic is a unique weapon model (some stages with nice particleFX) and stats being able to be chosen at your leisure.

Doing 800 alex runs or have some luck on maps (which many couldnt afford to spend on alot) or grind law and eso for that minimal upgrade. Yes you can change the stats in the current relic quest, however, all that for minimal upgrade. Relic is supose to be powerful, unique (yes it can be unique looking some of them are copy paste from other weapons) but powerful? Not really. They need to make gear more appealing, like making raid gear with stat bonuses (like grand company gear) could be a starter. If you don't raid well, fair enough. I think raid gear should be best. I think more ways to obtain gear and with different setups would be good too. Right now FF14 feels more like a dress up simulator, even tho I don't spend hours on glamour,I pick something I like and that's it.