Variance in player skill is hurting FFXIV's itemization design.

[Nalien]

I'd argue catering to the lowest common denominator is worse for the longevity of the game... Itemization in this game is shallow, and while that makes it very accessible, there is only so much time one can spend splashing about in a puddle... People who want to swim will move on to games with depth, and the people who SE are catering to here will just get bored eventually... I've certainly completely lost interest in gearing up in this game, and that's the core of the games progression... There is enough content besides that to keep me interested, but I certainly give zero f*cks about gear these days... Wish that was limited to itemization, too, but it isn't... Dungeons and raids just regurgitate the same template over and over... Thankfully we have something like Palace of the Dead on the way, though I shouldn't get my hopes up... Still, looks far more interesting than any of the current dungeons or raids, and with an independent progression system they can actually test some deeper itemization with it... Depending how they work it, I can see it quickly replacing 90% of the rest of the game IMO, and if that's the case I hope the majority agrees with me and Yoshida can actually see how much more popular content with some depth is... By all means, cater to casuals, but exclusively doing that is a fools game... You have a shallow end and a deep end, nobody wants to stick around in the shallow end forever... People will either grow to want something more, or they'll move to a new puddle...

Of course, it wouldn't be a thread on gear/itemization without me linking this ol' gal...

[Dzian]

I've certainly completely lost interest in gearing up in this game, and that's the core of the games progression... There is enough content besides that to keep me interested, but I certainly give zero f*cks about gear these days...

This is something I definitely agree with and I think is a big part of the problem perhaps in many cases even bigger than player skill.

For me I don't care about gear because every piece of gear I get is ultimately going to end up traded in for seals as it'll be replace in a month or so with something better. this makes gear incredibly lack luster and thus not worth the effort to get... my paladin is 231 and there's no reason to take it higher. over time i'll probably upgrade the lore 230s into 240s or I know at somepoint there'll be 250 even 260 gear.

its also the reason I don't bother melding anything... whats the point when its going to be replaced in no time...

so then when you look at the "harder" content like savage and extreme primals the answer is simply why bother? next patch everything you have will be obsolete and easily replaced or an eaiser alternative will be added.

didn't do savage for the 240 gear didn't need 240 gear. and now 240 gear is easier to get from weeping city and upgrading lore.....

there's really no reason at all to make any "effort" to gear up your character because you'll gear it up no matter what you do.
and there's really no drive to go and do the "harder" content because everyone will be on the same level anyway....

for me it's not a lack of skill that stops me doing extremes / savage stuff it's just there is absolutely ZERO motivation to do so.
and I know a lot of players who feel the exact same way.

so I don't think skill gap between players is the big problem at all. there's just no motivation for players to rise up to the challenges because anything they get form doing them will ultimately be junk...

that and the challenges are made easier over time anyway so knowing that, where's the logic to do it now....

it's a contradiction by game design... Gear is the motivating factor to do content. but back in beta Yoshi said "gear wasn't valuable or something to get attached to" if it's not valuable there's no motivation to get it. which in turn means there's no motivation to do the harder content...

so in many cases the problem is not one of skill but one of proper incentives. if the rewards from savage / extremes were valuable pieces of gear. i'd makethe effort to get them. but when the rewards are "next months junk" there's no point.

[Granyala]

for me it's not a lack of skill that stops me doing extremes / savage stuff it's just there is absolutely ZERO motivation to do so.
and I know a lot of players who feel the exact same way.

GOOD.

Because stuff like savage is best left to players that WANT the challenge for its own sake and not to be made mandatory because it nets ridiculous levels of character power.
If you want that, WoW raiding should be right up your alley.

if the rewards from savage / extremes were valuable pieces of gear. i'd makethe effort to get them. but when the rewards are "next months junk" there's no point

That's a problematic you will find in virtually EVERY MMO that employs vertical progression.
New Raid tier -> old stuff rendered weak and worthless.

[Dzian]

That's a problematic you will find in virtually EVERY MMO that employs vertical progression.
New Raid tier -> old stuff rendered weak and worthless.

mmmhmmmm and that's exactly why I don't give a damn about gear.

only thing that keeps me interested is the storyline and the social aspect with a few friends..

a lot of people have said the same. and therein lies the problem. the gear is meant to be the motivator but many people don't give a damn about the gear.....

it's not so much a varience in skill that affects itemaztion design but a varience in players motivation.....

[Kaurie]

GOOD.

Because stuff like savage is best left to players that WANT the challenge for its own sake and not to be made mandatory because it nets ridiculous levels of character power.

Why do you feel this way? I never understood this feeling of "mandatory" in a video game. I do think that proper incentives and rewards are vital to the enjoyment of these activities though - this is based off fairly simple psychological concepts (the stuff you lean in PSYC 100 etc.)

If you want that, WoW raiding should be right up your alley.

It is right up my alley. Recently started raiding there and realized it is significantly superior to raiding here. Have since quit my FFXIV static (still sub in) and raid there now.

That's a problematic you will find in virtually EVERY MMO that employs vertical progression.
New Raid tier -> old stuff rendered weak and worthless.

Yes and no, it somewhat depends on the patch frequency that we have here, which isn't a bad thing. However, gear that you obtain raiding doesn't even get you started on the next raid tier. For example, you could have had full 210 raid gear from Gordias, but as soon as midas dropped, crafting + midas NM + seph ex were better and you needed that before going into Midas Savage. It would have been nicer if the gordian savage gear got you started in Midas Savage - for example.

That said, power of gear isn't a huge issue, but the staleness of it. There is very little difference between getting different gear pieces of equivalent level (and not that big of difference between ilvls really). It'd be nice if there were different gear builds you could create, or set bonuses etc.

[Granyala]

Why do you feel this way? I never understood this feeling of "mandatory" in a video game.

I raided in WoW for 9 years.
I have seen and felt the difference between a Mythic raider that raids mythic for the challenge and dudes that are just there for the "incentive". You may guess once, who ends up being the burden on progressing and who causes loot drama.

I also see what an extreme item level gap does to characters of non raiders. It SUCKS to feel like trash next to a raider, no matter how well you play.

I play FF-XIV as a retired non raider and like it because that BS doesn't exist here.

However, gear that you obtain raiding doesn't even get you started on the next raid tier. For example, you could have had full 210 raid gear from Gordias, but as soon as midas dropped, crafting + midas NM + seph ex were better and you needed that before going into Midas Savage. It would have been nicer if the gordian savage gear got you started in Midas Savage - for example.

If you NEED pentamelded crafted gear to progress, that indeed would be quite the design fail on their part. I agree.
I always thought it was an option for those hardcores willing to go the extra mile.

Can't speak about the actual balancing of content though, because I do not raid in FF.

That said, power of gear isn't a huge issue, but the staleness of it.

On that we can definitely agree.
Gear visuals are cool but I do miss set bonuses that spice things up and reward you extra for completing a set.
These could also be used to make raiding gear more unique w/o going into the "insane power" territory, although I'm not sure if that can be pulled off w/o one set ending up superior and being deemed "mandatory" by all raiders.

As I also said in my initial post: materia is dead boring in it's current passive incarnation.

[Kaurie]

snip.

I feel we agree on a bunch, but are just coming from opposite ends (me from FFXIV to WoW, you from WoW to FFXIV) so have a few different things that we've tired of.

In terms of the gear set pieces, I don't think that increasing power is a bad thing. This can be alleviated by making set pieces part of rewards in raids, no one would require it as a pre-req to enter a static as you need to do the raid in order to get it. You're all grouping together to get those set pieces and progress.

I think set pieces can be made which give you +power without being so mandatory. I mean right now, someone in a 230 weapon can be fine in Savage, but a 240 weapon is sure nice. No one is forcing people to have the 240 weapon though.

Further, set pieces could just make things easier to accomplish, or increase your burst, without making you do (much) more damage overall. I put much in brackets, as increasing burst would likely result in higher overall DPS due to coupling buffs.

[Granyala]

In terms of the gear set pieces, I don't think that increasing power is a bad thing. This can be alleviated by making set pieces part of rewards in raids, no one would require it as a pre-req to enter a static as you need to do the raid in order to get it. You're all grouping together to get those set pieces and progress.

And as soon as you get grouped with a raider in a PuG/DF you realize that your character is trash because you do not happen to like scheduled large group play.

No thank you.

This is the main thing that drives me away from playing WoW as a non raider, despite still loving Azeroth and feeling at home there. Just because I don't raid anymore doesn't mean I don't analyze and evaluate my performance. Constantly being crap due to a lack of raw stats sucks the fun out of playing completely. Being forced into raiding to get proper stats to be able to compete at least a little bit also doesn't help matters.