Variance in player skill is hurting FFXIV's itemization design.

[Brian_]

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From a recent interview with Yoshida:

http://gamerescape.com/2016/06/17/e3...naoki-yoshida/

Question: With items, Heavensward is interesting with the diversity in how they look like weapons and equipment. We’re still seeing items however that only have marginal upgrades. Have you given any thought or concerns to diversifying items from a gameplay standpoint like changing how your abilities work or anything like that?

Yoshida: If there were specific items that had that boost or an added ability, we would want a situation where that item needs to be hard to obtain by farming or making the drop rate extremely low and that’s not really productive either. In this game we have people of all skill levels. Different players have the freedom to choose which content they want to play and so the development team wants to make it so that no matter how each player plays the game, they can still end up at the same strength and be on an equal playing field. That’s what we keep in mind when deciding the strength of an item. Adding anything special like stats or abilities on weapons is quite dangerous and so we avoid that kind of situation.

As a preface, I have always been of the mentality that people should be free to do as they wish and act within their individual rights to enjoy the game. But, as they say, “your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man’s nose begins.”

In the quote from Yoshida, he is essentially saying that because they must cater to a common denominator, that we cannot have gear with unique and interesting effects. He's saying that despite playing the game in different ways with varying skill, that we should be able to reach the same potential. He's implying that because certain people cannot clear certain content for lack of effort or interest, that he cannot give the content rewards that create an imbalance in character potential.

I'd argue that no matter which direction you go, one side will be hurt. The overarching and unfortunate point comes down to which side you leave behind. And, I'm fully willing to leave behind a certain portion of this player-base if that means we can get more interesting itemization. I sincerely do not think the lack of a certain item will ever hurt a player's experience of the game enough for it to cost you a subscription. On the other hand, boring itemization and the generic gear treadmill has already cost SE at least a few of my friends.

Also, I don't think it's impossible to create a system that features more interesting itemization but doesn't compromise our ability to be selective with the content we challenge or the way we enjoy the game. The common description of World of Warcraft is that they're good at stealing ideas and refining them. In how they've described their new growing weapon system, they've basically ripped off FFXIV's relic weapons and made it into a system that accomplishes varied itemization with content freedom. Think about it -- what if gear in this game accumulated experience from any content we did (PvP, dungeons, raids, etc.) and unlocked unique traits that we could use? What if through the accumulation of tome-stones (which you can obviously get from various content) we could purchase materia that changed our skills when melded?

[Xiozen]

This is an interesting point from "both sides of the aisle". However, the way I see it is simple. The stats placed on the weapon/armor (item) to determine its strength and effectiveness is extremely standard and basic...compared to the "possibility" of adding items that allow a deeper level of customization. This topic was already addressed pre-2.0, and the answer was relatively the same in terms of the direction the director wished to go. FFXI, it always seems to come back to that MMO, has a deeper, more meaningful, variety of items to use in unique and creative ways, which to me adds a certain level of customization which would be a BENEFIT to FFXIV.

I strongly believe that...not because of some random guesswork, but because this template has been played out before, in another long running MMO... the flip-side (and I find it difficult to accept that it would not be player-accepted) is that the devs would have to work a lot harder to balance out these types of items, as oppose to simply flipping Spell Speed, VIT, STR, Skill Speed and Critical Hit/Accuracy on items.

At this late stage it's wishful thinking at it's finest.

[Talligan]

FFXI, it always seems to come back to that MMO, has a deeper, more meaningful, variety of items to use in unique and creative ways, which to me adds a certain level of customization which would be a BENEFIT to FFXIV.

Eh, I'd be cautious over that. Due to FFXI's itemization you had groups requiring leaping lizzie boots just for an xp party in Valkurm. All those 'interesting' and 'neat' gear pieces became required for even basic stuff and since it was made super rare, only the super rich or patient could get them, effectively locking most people out of content.

[KeluBehemoth]

Eh, I'd be cautious over that. Due to FFXI's itemization you had groups requiring leaping lizzie boots just for an xp party in Valkurm. All those 'interesting' and 'neat' gear pieces became required for even basic stuff and since it was made super rare, only the super rich or patient could get them, effectively locking most people out of content.

Never once saw or heard of anything as absurd as this. Finding an EXP party was hard enough (waiting hours upon hours); people werent blocked out like that.

[Ryel]

Eh, I'd be cautious over that. Due to FFXI's itemization you had groups requiring leaping lizzie boots just for an xp party in Valkurm. All those 'interesting' and 'neat' gear pieces became required for even basic stuff and since it was made super rare, only the super rich or patient could get them, effectively locking most people out of content.

This isn't even close to true.

[Nalien]

Eh, I'd be cautious over that. Due to FFXI's itemization you had groups requiring leaping lizzie boots just for an xp party in Valkurm. All those 'interesting' and 'neat' gear pieces became required for even basic stuff and since it was made super rare, only the super rich or patient could get them, effectively locking most people out of content.

Not once have I heard of anything remotely like this occurring... Quite the opposite, in fact, I remember getting to places like Crawlers Nest and people missing gear was "OK"... Plenty of times I saw people show up without various slots filled, and rather than "GTFO scrub", people just got on with grinding... Sometimes people would recommend filling those slots, heck some times people would quickly craft a piece for the player to equip... I'm not going to idolize XIs community further, it could be just as bad as XIVs, but I really cannot imagine something like that happening in XIV... The geared players would kick the newb, and the newb would throw a tantrum the moment advice is uttered...

The whole concept of "People will have to have X to do content!" is slightly flawed anyway... Perhaps for endgame raiding, but I doubt the Duty Finder will care... If you take such stats off gear in favour of a FFIX style system, it's not even something people can check particularly easily... It would be something for the hardcore raiders to care about, but they already "discriminate" based on gear and Jobs... The only change such a system would make is adding depth to content, suddenly you're not just doing dungeons for tomestones, you're after a piece of gear for a certain stat. Suddenly you perhaps have more reason to care about higher tier content, while one might not care about the item level boost from Alexander, they might care about a special stat from Alexander...

Depending how you balance it, it's ultimately no different than the current melding options we have... If we take IXs system and adapt it to XIV, then you have plenty of stats but are limited to picking a few... That would mean, setting stats from gear pretty much everyone gets anyway (like tomestone gear) could be inferior to setting stats from from raid gear, but... How is that any different than melding tIV over tV? tV melds are obviously better, but I've not seen a single person complain at people using tIV yet... There's also room for situational stats... IX had a lot of those, "Maneater" increased damage against humanoid enemies, for example... Could easily do the same thing here; Void Ark gear provides "Demon Killer" for increased damage against Voidsent enemies, Alexander could provide "Goblin Killer" and "Machina Killer". The reward for Alexander, then, wouldn't really benefit you for most for most of the game... There might be a Goblin themed dungeon later down the line, in which case such stats become more worthwhile, but again... Nobody knows what you set, and with enough options it's entirely possible that you could make up the difference with other stats...

With the healers it was less fussy, but if you had a RDM who had obtained the relic hat and Dalmatica vs a red mage who had not, and they were both applying for the HNM's open red mage slot, guess which one they'd pick?

This already happens here anyway... If two people apply to join my totally rad Alexander static, and one has i210 while the other has i230, guess which one I'm going to pick?

Treasure Hunter specifically was a really stupid stat in XI, no argument there... Thief was poorly handled for years... Generally though, gear was rare enough that people only really discriminated based on gear if the option of picking someone with better gear was there... If there wasn't? You'd make do with what you could get, perhaps even help gear up your new static member so they do have that gear...

[Teraluna]

It's a business, aimed at maximum widespread appeal. That is all.

[Nalien]

I'd argue catering to the lowest common denominator is worse for the longevity of the game... Itemization in this game is shallow, and while that makes it very accessible, there is only so much time one can spend splashing about in a puddle... People who want to swim will move on to games with depth, and the people who SE are catering to here will just get bored eventually... I've certainly completely lost interest in gearing up in this game, and that's the core of the games progression... There is enough content besides that to keep me interested, but I certainly give zero f*cks about gear these days... Wish that was limited to itemization, too, but it isn't... Dungeons and raids just regurgitate the same template over and over... Thankfully we have something like Palace of the Dead on the way, though I shouldn't get my hopes up... Still, looks far more interesting than any of the current dungeons or raids, and with an independent progression system they can actually test some deeper itemization with it... Depending how they work it, I can see it quickly replacing 90% of the rest of the game IMO, and if that's the case I hope the majority agrees with me and Yoshida can actually see how much more popular content with some depth is... By all means, cater to casuals, but exclusively doing that is a fools game... You have a shallow end and a deep end, nobody wants to stick around in the shallow end forever... People will either grow to want something more, or they'll move to a new puddle...

Of course, it wouldn't be a thread on gear/itemization without me linking this ol' gal...

[Dzian]

I've certainly completely lost interest in gearing up in this game, and that's the core of the games progression... There is enough content besides that to keep me interested, but I certainly give zero f*cks about gear these days...

This is something I definitely agree with and I think is a big part of the problem perhaps in many cases even bigger than player skill.

For me I don't care about gear because every piece of gear I get is ultimately going to end up traded in for seals as it'll be replace in a month or so with something better. this makes gear incredibly lack luster and thus not worth the effort to get... my paladin is 231 and there's no reason to take it higher. over time i'll probably upgrade the lore 230s into 240s or I know at somepoint there'll be 250 even 260 gear.

its also the reason I don't bother melding anything... whats the point when its going to be replaced in no time...

so then when you look at the "harder" content like savage and extreme primals the answer is simply why bother? next patch everything you have will be obsolete and easily replaced or an eaiser alternative will be added.

didn't do savage for the 240 gear didn't need 240 gear. and now 240 gear is easier to get from weeping city and upgrading lore.....

there's really no reason at all to make any "effort" to gear up your character because you'll gear it up no matter what you do.
and there's really no drive to go and do the "harder" content because everyone will be on the same level anyway....

for me it's not a lack of skill that stops me doing extremes / savage stuff it's just there is absolutely ZERO motivation to do so.
and I know a lot of players who feel the exact same way.

so I don't think skill gap between players is the big problem at all. there's just no motivation for players to rise up to the challenges because anything they get form doing them will ultimately be junk...

that and the challenges are made easier over time anyway so knowing that, where's the logic to do it now....

it's a contradiction by game design... Gear is the motivating factor to do content. but back in beta Yoshi said "gear wasn't valuable or something to get attached to" if it's not valuable there's no motivation to get it. which in turn means there's no motivation to do the harder content...

so in many cases the problem is not one of skill but one of proper incentives. if the rewards from savage / extremes were valuable pieces of gear. i'd makethe effort to get them. but when the rewards are "next months junk" there's no point.

[Granyala]

for me it's not a lack of skill that stops me doing extremes / savage stuff it's just there is absolutely ZERO motivation to do so.
and I know a lot of players who feel the exact same way.

GOOD.

Because stuff like savage is best left to players that WANT the challenge for its own sake and not to be made mandatory because it nets ridiculous levels of character power.
If you want that, WoW raiding should be right up your alley.

if the rewards from savage / extremes were valuable pieces of gear. i'd makethe effort to get them. but when the rewards are "next months junk" there's no point

That's a problematic you will find in virtually EVERY MMO that employs vertical progression.
New Raid tier -> old stuff rendered weak and worthless.