Variance in player skill is hurting FFXIV's itemization design.

[Caelum_Dragguell]

Since I'm on my way out of this game I may as well state how I felt about the state of raids since this thread now seems so dead set on arguing over small things rather than actual change.
As far as the Normal/Savage mode of raids goes... that's not an issue at all, it shouldn't be. I personally think that there should be a way for everyone to enjoy the same story, although maybe it could have been handled differently. What I DO see as the issue is the lack of a lasting reward for clearing the savage content.

Many people claim that simply clearing the content is reward enough... knowing that you were able to complete something thousands of others could not (or rather maybe they just didn't feel like doing it).

Many people feel the need to hassle each other, whether it be a more casual player making accusations on how a raider feels about things, or the other way around. I often see raiders ask more casual players why they even need the highest ilv gear when any content that they run doesn't even require it. I also see the more casual players ask raiders why THEY want to have items that have stats that are more unique.
These topics become quarrels and eventually before you know it, instead of tackling an important subject on how to make the game better, we instead attack each other personally and gain.... nothing from it.

So before I say what kind of reward should be added or could be added as incentive for clearing various hard content (which mind you does take tens (sometimes one hundred or hundreds) of hours and hours and hours and hours of commitment and organization and coordination with 7 other people or more) Can we just agree to disagree and instead focus on providing feedback and ideas for the developers to draw from rather than make them sift through post upon post of useless argument and personal attacks?

Back to the topic at hand:

I propose that the reward for clearing harder content is..... no singular type of thing. Gear sets and set bonuses/interesting stats should be implemented to spice up the game (no not horizontal progression although everyone seems to think this whenever the subject of even adding one more stat is mentioned) first and foremost, and obviously these things should be available in variations to everyone. The rewards for the hard won loot from Raids however should indeed have some unique aspects to it. Stats that are only found on raid earned gear or set bonuses unique to that tier of gear etc... On top of this Titles for each fight should be added (maybe) Titles were enough incentive to drive some to complete the brutally hard Second Coil of Bahamut: Savage. And lastly, I think more craftable gear and more items should be able to be made using items found in these raids. I just feel like it would be cool to find rare items in a raid and then go to a crafter (one that's heavily specialized) and have them forge it into something amazing.

As far as the current state of raid rewards go, the rewards last for maybe 3-6 months tops (this is being very generous) within obtaining them. I feel there has to be a way to alter the progression system so as to make it feel more worthwhile to do the hard raids in order to get that cool item that will help you later on.

My thoughts are that of an idealist and yes many of you will disagree with what I have to say and that's fine. However, I'd prefer that if someone disagree's that it is left at that and that another idea is posted without any sort of argument needing to start. Either that or build upon someone else's idea. Just agree to disagree instead of creating useless fluff for the dev's to sift through.

[Brian_]

I don't buy that for a second. If you gave any raider truth serum (or a fifth of Wild Irish Rose), they'd probably tell you the story never meant anything to them. The only thing they liked about the Coil story was that they could say "We got to see the story and the commoners didn't". That's all. SE did everyone a service by making story mode Alexander, whether you want to admit it or not. The only negative you and others see is that your security blanket, exclusivity, was pulled out from under you.

I'm a raider and I find it pretty presumptuous for you to assume what I think.

Did I genuinely enjoy experiencing coil's story? Yea. T12's cut-scene is my favorite moment in the game and also has my favorite piece of music in this game. The fact that it was locked behind weeks of hard work and a fun fight made it mean all the more to me. The commonly touted idea that a reward gotten from hard-work is all the sweeter is not some lie.

At the same time, did I really care that they later released it as a stand-alone video? No. Not at all.

I don't want raid content to be exclusive. I want more people to enjoy it. I get no joy from seeing the raid scene shrink and to assume that exclusivity is what I want when I just want more people to be incentivized to raid is idiotic. When the HW relic was released and people were doing coil carries for the poetics bonus, I was genuinely happy more people got to experience coil -- even if it was unsynced and they were getting carried.

SE did a piss poor job of fostering a healthy raiding community in multiple ways. The first failure is their pandering to bads (not to be confused with casuals) through their face-roll difficulty tuning of 90% of the game's content. The content is bland, boring, and has poor longevity and replayability. This failure is magnified by the complete lack of in-between content -- stuff like the original Steps of Faith, HM-trials, EX-trials, 24-mans with a bit more bite, and T10 / T11 / A5S difficulty raid content. Casual and mid-core raiders were gutted by HW for a reason. In 3.3, they've taken baby steps to remedy this with Nidhogg NM / EX and Weeping City but their in-between tier still does not properly satisfy a real portion of their player-base or bridge the gap to my next issue (they really needed to also release a NM and EX warring triad fight in 3.3). The third failure is their complete botching of the reward to difficulty tuning ratio of Savage -- an issue compounded by the first two problems creating no fluid or natural progression path into the Savage tier of difficulty.

IMO if you're a PvE game, you need real PvE progression. Not a huge wall between 90% of the game's content and the hardest 4 fights of the game. You need to give players content that can gradually prepare them for Savage and keep them engaged within the PvE end-game. And, the content needs to be available at the onset. For example, patch 3.2 should've been 2 dungeons > story based NM trial > Midas NM > Sephirot NM > Zurvan NM > Sophia NM > Weeping City > EX version of story based trial > Sephirot HM > Zurvan HM > Sophia HM > Midas Savage. Then you would've had a real progression curve of inbetween fights for the mid-core raider base to sharpen their teeth on before jumping into Savage. 3.3 should be experimental / alternative content like an updated Diadem, Deep Dungeon, Aquapolis, and some other stuff. 3.4's progression curve would be based around the next Mhach raid, EX versions of Sephirot, Zurvan, and Sophia culminating in a conclusion to the Warring Triad story locked behind EX completion, the next Alexander tier, and maybe something from the MSQ.

[Granyala]

Because they like the challenge? SE split off the story because it gated far more players that were only interested in the story. I doubt raiders care all that much. Most of the ones I know do the harder content for no other reason than they enjoy the difficulty, and seeing whether they can top themselves or not later.

Most of the people YOU know.
But you must be aware that challenge seekers are only a tiny fraction of the playerbase. And that's okay, I don't think SE expects huge savage participation, after all it's supposed to be fringe content for the elite that dares.

People here seem to think that to small a percentage cares about raids, which leads to recruitment difficulty, which in turn leads to them wanting raiding to be more rewarding so people get bribed into it so they can keep a stable roster more easily.

I tried to tell them that this wouldn't work, because they'd get tons of raiders that don't have the correct mindset for challenge seeking, leading to all kinds of nasty raid drama. Alas, no one listens.

As far as the current state of raid rewards go, the rewards last for maybe 3-6 months tops (this is being very generous) within obtaining them.

Raid rewards (except titles and mounts) always last till the next raid Tier is released.
That's roughly 6 months.

The third failure is their complete botching of the reward to difficulty tuning ratio of Savage -- an issue compounded by the first two problems creating no fluid or natural progression path into the Savage tier of difficulty.

I still think it would have been better if Savage rewarded vanity only. Unique set models, dyable, maybe cool particle effects as options.
Such rewards are decoupled from the item level treadmill and withstand the test of time much better than random stat gear that looks like the normal version and gets replaced as soon as new content hits.

IMO if you're a PvE game, you need real PvE progression. Not a huge wall between 90% of the game's content and the hardest 4 fights of the game.

Agreed. SE essentially made the same mistake Blizzard did.
Whole game is easy peasy... want to raid -> vertical mountain climb in difficulty.

[Brian_]

People here seem to think that to small a percentage cares about raids, which leads to recruitment difficulty, which in turn leads to them wanting raiding to be more rewarding so people get bribed into it so they can keep a stable roster more easily.

I tried to tell them that this wouldn't work, because they'd get tons of raiders that don't have the correct mindset for challenge seeking, leading to all kinds of nasty raid drama. Alas, no one listens.

The idea is to get more people trying raid content so that they can figure out if the content works for them or not. It's about helping people develop a taste for the challenge, the teamwork and camaraderie, the shared accomplishment, etc. As is, many people don't even give it a try at all. I've met many people who were intimidated by the content and the stories they've heard about it, just couldn't find a group that fit them because of the tiny raiding community, or got a taste of the worst of PF and gave up.

[Granyala]

As is, many people don't even give it a try at all. I've met many people who were intimidated by the content and the stories they've heard about it

Yah, but making savage more rewarding is not the answer.

Savage is supposed to be brutal. People are supposed to be intimidated by difficulty like that.

What we need is not "moar epixx" for savage raiders to feel "speshil".
What we need (what you already stated) is a proper PvE progression path, so people can gradually build up skill and confidence to tackle savage eventually as opposed to getting chased over the plank into water infested with sharks that have lasers mounted on their heads and subsequently having a bad time.

[Kallera]

snip.

When alexander came out, and even in the months afterward, players weren't shy in saying that its story was a weak aspect of the game, that bond villain goblins just didn't compare to a calamity causing dragon god that had possesed well known characters.

Some might not care that they released it as a video, but plenty of people, myself included, did. After months of being told to "watch a youtube video instead of playing the game" by others, trying anyway, and SE being mum, people trying to clear were furious. So story is still a major thing that keeps casual players interested, but putting it all behind a8s isn't the answer.

[Venur]

Give me 3 good reasons why people who don't raid should have raid stat bonus gear? If you raid you have earned it. I could go on all night about why they shouldn't have it without giving effort, but before anyone ask me or want them to give them reasons, I'd like to have you give me 3 reasons.

Re-read my post. I clearly said that raider need bether stats. My claim is that "funier"items shouldn't get restricted to raider.

[loreleidiangelo]

I don't really mind the story being accessible to everyone, but new boss models/encounters for the Savage version should have pretty much been a given. Especially since large amounts of the mechanics are carried over from the normal version of the raid, just slightly re-done or made "more difficult". New gear designs should have also been included in the package, instead of just dyeable versions of the normal mode gear.

[RobbieH]

Why raider would need to have funier items then none raider ?

But it doesn't make sense to claim that raider need cooler stuff because they raid.

"Cooler stuff", can you explain what you mean with this before i jump into wrong conclusions?

Raid rewards (except titles and mounts) always last till the next raid Tier is released.
That's roughly 6 months.

Yes and that's a very bad thing, i see very well how hardcore FC players on my server spend their time in Idylshire doing nothing while on full i240, and why do they do nothing? Because there's nothing for them to, they accomplished the best there is do accomplish, and this has been going on even before 3.3 hit.

[Brian_]

Yah, but making savage more rewarding is not the answer.

Savage is supposed to be brutal. People are supposed to be intimidated by difficulty like that.

What we need is not "moar epixx" for savage raiders to feel "speshil".
What we need (what you already stated) is a proper PvE progression path, so people can gradually build up skill and confidence to tackle savage eventually as opposed to getting chased over the plank into water infested with sharks that have lasers mounted on their heads and subsequently having a bad time.

It doesn't matter how smooth or well constructed your progression path is if there is no light at the end of the tunnel or carrot at the end of the stick. I do a job that I generally like but if I wasn't paid an appropriate salary, you can bet I would still be unhappy.

Should I work for the pursuit of a passion? Sure. That doesn't mean you shouldn't pay me appropriately for my time.

Should I raid for the pursuit of the challenge? Sure. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be appropriately rewarded for my accomplishments.

And to anyone who says it's not fair -- what's not fair? If someone works for a reward, is the reward not deserved? I am a person who believes that you reap what you sow. If you don't want to put in the time, effort, and dedication, you live with what you end up with. But, I am also a person who believes that everyone deserves a fair shot. Currently, that is far from reality. Fix the system so that everyone has an equal shot at the top and plenty of reason to pursue that goal and if they still choose not to go that route, then they have to live with it. If raiding is not for you, then there needs to be alternative progression with rewards equally balanced in terms of dedication = reward.

But really, I kind of feel sorry for SE sometimes. Just take a look at the i210 relic step. As they clarified, at release, it was one hell of a grind because they needed to make the effort required equal to that of clearing A4S. It still fell WAY short of that standard but still the outrage was rampant. The criticism they received for a copy and pasted ARR relic quest-line was well deserved but all the crying about the grind just went to show how little this player-base is interested in actually working for their rewards. Why I only kind of feel sorry for SE goes back to my point about reaping what you sow -- SE has fostered this type of community by constantly just giving out stuff for free.