Please, Be careful what you wish for

[Ryel]

This thread title is a bit far reaching but the particular topic that has lead me to write this post is actually the current housing situation, so if you feel you've heard enough about that issue already I apologize.

This post will also be rather long, so for that I also apologize but I'll drop a TLDR at the bottom.

I recently caught up with the E3 Live Letter and the Q&A session with Yoshida, where he gave answers to various topics brought up by the FFXIV community. In particular his response about players selling housing plots sounded fair, however within just a few minutes both the official forums and reddit were filled with various posters condoning witch hunts on players advertising housing sales in the PF without what seemed to me at least, fully understanding the context of his answer and the implications of their actions.

Let me explain:

It's no news to anyone paying attention that the current housing availability system is far from ideal however the simple truth is that the availability of plots (not private rooms) on large population servers simply do not meet the demand of players who wish to carve out a space of Eorzea of their own. This is an issue that is further compounded with the continued addition of content that is gated behind housing acquisition (see: Gardening, Chocobo stables, Airships) which I imagine many players wish to take part in.

The obvious demand is to add more housing plots, something they have done multiple times but with each attempt are still unable to meet the rising tide of players who wish to own virtual property. I won't really touch on this as the issue is still being addressed and we'll have to see how the apartment system that is planned for 3.4 release is going to play out.

The issue I'd like to speak about is the community demands for GM and developer action to be taken against players.

There are threads and posts up on this forum right now calling for players to report people advertising plot sales in the PF and to even go so far as to report players looking to buy a house.

To my understanding Yoshida's comment was that players were not to sell houses for what should be considered exorbitant amounts, as in amounts that are far in excess of that which the buyer payed for the plot initially. Additionally if i recall correctly the majority of issues GMs have run into and stated for selling plots to be against ToS are twofold.

The first being that since plots aren't actually "sell-able" and as such that they have no way to monitor /facilitate the trades and resolve players disputes should they occur, and the second being that buying plots just to list them for massive amounts is considered griefing other players. However keep in mind neither of those points have been made as "official" statements and only the latter was somewhat touched upon by Yoshida recently.

These two points lead to one larger problem:

There is no in-game way to reliably sell a housing plot.


I said the thread title is a bit far reaching because this often happens when players are upset with "x" content or "y" feature in-game, they often come onto the forums and ask for the wrong solution or in the worst case no solution and just shout at the GMs and Devs to go after other players as opposed finding working alternatives.

This isn't to say that nobody has been making these suggestions at all because there are many posters that certainly have but the overwhelming occurrence is often anger at others for working with the limited systems we have in place.

In regards to housing specifically: preventing players from selling plots will not magically open up more plots In fact it will leave less for other players in general, as many of the players who bought multiple plots aren't part of the army of the dark lord who will feel they were felled by the forum warriors of light and will just drop their toys and go home.

In reality they will do one of two things:

A) Find a means outside of the game to sell their plots.
B) Keep the plots permanently and find alternative ways to recoup their investment (gardening).

Mass reports only punish players who are able to actually come up with the excess gil to afford a plot from someone reselling a plot (provided it's a reasonable amount).

Should a player be able to sell a small plot that was 5mil initially for 75mil after the wards are full?

Of course not.

Should a player be able to sell that same plot for 10-15mil? That sounds a bit more reasonable if there were some in-game land deed item and a function that allowed players to transfer ownership with some sort of market cap or fixed value.

To me this seems like a solution that works for everyone, however the way the situation is currently being handled it's likely many players who do have the gil for housing are going to have a much harder time getting their hands on a plot because the current climate around it has gotten so hostile.

tl;dr: Asking for bad solutions or witch hunting players while in anger in response to current game problems is more likely to ruin it for the entire player-base and not just those you feel are taking advantage, this goes for everything from difficulty adjustments to game features and the housing market is the best example of this currently.

[LadyVal]

He said that you can sell your plots if you are moving servers or do not want your house anymore, but you cannot sell your housing for profit.

Also, while players did ask for this, Yoshi-P went to Balmung himself and witnessed what goes on there to come to this conclusion. So it was a decision he made with first-hand data.

[Ryel]

He said that you can sell your plots if you are moving servers or do not want your house anymore, but you cannot sell your housing for profit.

Also, while players did ask for this, Yoshi-P went to Balmung himself and witnessed what goes on there to come to this conclusion. So it was a decision he made with first-hand data.

Sure but what defines "profit' varies so widely between players it doesnt really help the situation. That and many players seem to have flat out ignored that part and simply say "See! selling plots is against the ToS so report all the players!"

That answer is also less likely to get players to relinquish land if they initally did buy it for profit.

Selling plots for profit shouldn't be an issue, selling it for "exorbitant" amounts should be, as resale is still the best way to get plots to change hands.

[LadyVal]

Sure but what defines "profit' varies so widely between players it doesnt really help the situation. That and many players seem to have flat out ignored that part and simply say "See! selling plots is against the ToS so report all the players!"

Right, but it's not our job as players to investigate how much someone spent on a house vs. how much they are selling it for, that's a GM's job to determine.

I mean really if anyone isn't making money off of selling their house, they have nothing to worry about. If they're hoping to get a little extra off the top for whatever reason... then maybe those sellers should reconsider.

It seems like this may be a pain for GMs but I really doubt it will affect most players, even if they are reported. A GM isn't going to pull you into GM jail and ask you how much you paid for your house because some random derp reported you.

[Ryel]

I mean really if anyone isn't making money off of selling their house, they have nothing to worry about. If they're hoping to get a little extra off the top for whatever reason... then maybe those sellers should reconsider.

This is the core issue in the current case.

For myself I have no personal plot to sell and while my FC does own one we're happy where we are.

However I can imagine this will discourage other players from selling plots using in-game means which in turn will actually make it more difficult for players who do have the gil and want to buy a plot to do so.

The players who have bought houses specifically for profit (many of whom have multiple plots per account) are not likely to go:

"well I guess that's it boys, lets pack it up and sell off these plots at break even values, the jig is up!"

Instead I imagine many of them will either just sit on the plots they currently own just to keep them, or they will start seeking methods outside of the game to sell the plot if they really want the profit (many already do this).

Either way it makes it harder for plots to change hands for the player who may have the gil saved up but just not the knowledge of getting in contact with one of these sellers outside of the game instead of an in-game function (like the party finder).

The reality is that punishing selling for profit shouldn't be the key focus, the focus should be making a system so that plots can be sold for reasonable profit to encourage the changing of hands. And to that end reporting the players who are selling plots will accomplish nothing positive in the long run for the people who feel slighted by plot sellers.

It hurts everyone really.

[Reinha]

A small plot costs 4 mil, player A buys it from the game. Player A sells it to B for 4 mil and B has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player B sells it to C for 8 mil and C has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player C sells it to D for 12 mil and D has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player D sells it to E for 16 mil and E has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player E sells it to F for 20 mil and F has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player F sells it to G for 24 mil and G has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player G sells it to H for 28 mil and H has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player H sells it to I for 32 mil and I has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player I sells it to J for 36 mil and J has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player J sells it to K for 40 mil and K has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player K sells it to L for 44 mil and L has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. Player L sells it to M for 48 mil and M has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. . . . . . . . Player S sells it to T for 76 mil and T has to also buy the plot from the game for 4 mil. . . . .

The reality is that punishing selling for profit shouldn't be the key focus, the focus should be making a system so that plots can be sold for reasonable profit to encourage the changing of hands.

At which point does the profit become unreasonable? In my above example no one was making any profit, but only passing the gil sink to the next buyer by asking what they paid. The effect is multiplied horrendously in the case of medium and large plots.

If the devs and community ended up deciding on a reasonable price and decided to cap the trading price, then everyone would end up having to pay the designated gil loss that comes with each exchange of hands, so what is the point of the higher price? For example, pay the seller the capped 20 mil amount and then pay the game 4 mil to claim a small house, sell forward for the capped 20 mil amount; you still lose 4 mil for owning a house. This is the same as paying only 4 mil and gaining 0 gil from getting rid of it, so why not just forbid any form of house selling? Wanna own a house, pay the set price. No more, no less. It's fair for everyone.

[yexie]

Sure but what defines "profit' varies so widely between players it doesnt really help the situation. That and many players seem to have flat out ignored that part and simply say "See! selling plots is against the ToS so report all the players!"

That answer is also less likely to get players to relinquish land if they initally did buy it for profit.

Selling plots for profit shouldn't be an issue, selling it for "exorbitant" amounts should be, as resale is still the best way to get plots to change hands.

You forget that those players ONLY bought those house to make a profit from reselling. It's not like they bought them for something and now don't need them anymore and trying to make the best of their situation... I think it should have been handled much strikter even. You get caught trying to sell your house for profit they should take the house and make it available for the general crowd again. They should actually simply forbid it all together and just implement something, that in case of a server move, your house gets destroyed by the system (not having to do it yourself BEFORE you move) and you get 50% or more back once you hit your new server. Also why not make it able to sell back houses to the system for a certain amount of the value? There are many ways this can be handled apart from letting people sell their houses for a "little" profit (whatever that may be).

[Ryel]

You ignore the fact, that alot of the new plots (and also plots which got demolished earlier) got buyed by player just to resell them. The most sellers are not players that did use the house and now are not interested anymore.

If they would effectively prevent the plot selling, these players would not buy the plots anymore. So there would be more free plots to get sold to players that really wants them.

You forget that those players ONLY bought those house to make a profit from reselling. It's not like they bought them for something and now don't need them anymore and trying to make the best of their situation... I think it should have been handled much strikter even.

Except that I haven't forgotten this and i even made a point to mention those players specifically, In fact it would appear both of you are missing the point I'm afraid.

The players who have purchased a plot or in some cases multiple plots for no reason other than to sell them for profit are not going to suddenly give up their plots for break even values or less because Yoshida makes a comment saying that selling them is against the ToS.

In many cases those players may well end up just sitting on the plot permanently which effectively removes that plot from being available forever or at the very least until they decide they no longer want to play the game, after all you can still garden or make use of the plot and return some cash on the initial investment instead of it being worth nothing.

What actually will happen however is that they'll follow the more likely scenario which is to try to find ways outside of the game in order to sell their plot if they really are that concerned about profit but neither of these things helps anyone who is complaining about players selling housing.

These players however are not suddenly going to just up and leave the plots because sales are being reported, if anything it makes it more likely that some plots may never change owners. It may very well turn some house sellers into house collectors which doesn't help anyone at the end of the day.

[Felis]

Sure but what defines "profit' varies so widely between players it doesnt really help the situation.

Selling it for 101% or more of current plot price

When I bought my house it was 5 mil. But now they start at three mil. If I give up my for 4 mil I can get reported? Really? I'm taking a 1 mill + lose and I can still get reported by that logic.

Player A: I bought the house for 5m, it is my right to sell it for 5m to player B
Player B: I bought the house for 8m, it is my right to sell it for 8m to player C
Player C: I bought the house for 11m, it is my right to sell it for 11m to player D

[NailBach]

allow them to be sold for the price they have been aquired, problem solved.