Thread: 4.0 abilities

Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

I don't have a problem with hotbars at all, my concern is about class gameplay changing on every expansion. Maybe they should go back to their 1 job skill every 5 levels and add traits inbetween.

If classes don't change at all, it'll literally feel like you're playing the same game all over, except it's with the expansion that you paid for (something that 3.0 fell into in some degree). Class changes is fine provided it makes sense and adds layer off depth to what's already there, or making it better.

Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

I don't have a problem with hotbars at all, my concern is about class gameplay changing on every expansion. Maybe they should go back to their 1 job skill every 5 levels and add traits inbetween.

I think it is time for them to start adding some flare back into already existing skills by introducing Traits that upgrade old skills.

For example, Tank Jobs could get a trait that adds a new additional effect for being in Tank stance such as Paladin gets Oath of Light each time they get hit which increase their shance to block with their shield and incrase reduce damage from their shield block.

Warriors's Tank Stance passive can get a additonal effect that each time they spend their Tank buff stack they will be given a new buff called "Inner Rage" which cause them to gain a small % of HP back from each hit they take.


For DPS

Dragoons can get a passive that adds special debuff or buff effect to their 1,2,3 skills scuh as each time they use their 123 skill they build up a special buff called "Dragon's Spirit" which increase their crit chance or ignore a certain amount of enemy's armor up to 5 stacks.

Ninja can get a passive that gives them a new effect for their 123 skill when they are in their poison stances being that each time they hit a enemy with 123 skills they build up a special DoT called "Blade Poison" with it becoming stronger the higher the stack number up to a stack of 5.

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Enemies still have Defense just like our characters.

Armor Penetration/Ignore in RPGs often have a much larger damage buff effect than a direct % damage increase buff on enemies with High Defense, such as bosses and the more sturdy monsters in dungeons.

It part of the reason why when a game offers a way to ignore a certain percent of enemies armor/defense that buff is often chosen over direct damage increase buffs.

For example,

if there is a 10% armor penetration/ignore on a enemy with 1000 armor then the enemy is only at 900 defense when attacking it. Then more on to a enemy with 2000 then that enemy is now at 1800 defense.

Direct damage buff is more set and the damage output is often weaker than armor penetration/ignore.

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Enemies still have Defense just like our characters.

Armor Penetration/Ignore in RPGs often have a much larger damage buff effect than a direct % damage increase buff on enemies with High Defense, such as bosses and the more sturdy monsters in dungeons.

It part of the reason why when a game offers a way to ignore a certain percent of enemies armor/defense that buff is often chosen over direct damage increase buffs.

That's the thing though. At the same gear level, my 300 relative potency (factoring in buffs) attack does the same average damage to a wimpy AoE-burn trash mob or to a boss, unless that boss has a specific form decreasing damage taken, as far as I've seen. Dragon Kick and Twin Snakes, for instance, have identical effects on one's damage.

(Just went ahead and tested this for a few minutes to confirm I wasn't crazy, and every Bootshine and True Strike fell within the same range of damage from either a Dragon Kick alone or Twin Snakes alone, often even the exact same number. Jumped into a DF group for M4N, apologized for being a shitter for a minute in the name of science, and found the same.)

(Testing on multiple levels—53,55, 57, and 60—and mob types in each level has found the same average damage per potency so far.)
Pretty sure the main reason the debuff is preferred in ST group content, just as the self-buff is preferred when AoEing, is that you can adjust more damage with it. Additionally, different calculation layers (your own damage dealt modifiers and then the target's damage received modifiers) will stack multiplicatively (just as with buffs affecting different sources of damage).

(I'm fairly sure buffs affecting the same type, such as simply +%dmg or +%attack speed were confirmed to stack only additively instead.)

I would like a mix of traits and skills. 5 new skills would lead to further ability bar bloat and be a bit much, but I think a couple new skills would be nice. As a NIN main, here's my wishlist for 4.0:

62: Improved Armor Crush (trait) Increases the duration your Huton is extended by Armor Crush to 45 seconds.

Allows more uses of AE in the rotation and makes keeping DE up less of a chore if needed. A moderate increase to single target damage that feels powerful yet doesn't change things too drastically.

64: Hayagake (new skill) Delivers an attack with 100 potency to your target and gain a movement speed up buff for 10 seconds. 60 second cooldown.

As a NIN I often feel like the least mobile melee dps. Shukuchi is awesome and fun, but only available every 60 seconds. Meanwhile, dragoons are flipping around left and right as needed. NIN should be a mobile class and this allows us to have a sprint-esque ability to compliment Shukuchi. Unlike gap closers, this needs to be used proactively to apply the buff prior to movement phases, so it has a different feel from other skills.

66: Improved Kassatsu (trait) Reduces the cooldown of Kassatsu to 60 seconds.

Mudras are such a fun part of the class but only used every 20 seconds. More kassatsus = more ninjutsu = more fun. This adds versatility to both single and aoe situations.It also compliments my level 70 trait.

68: All Creation (new skill) Delivers an attack with 300 potency to all enemies in a straight line. 90 second cooldown.

Stole it from Yuffie's final LB. An off global cooldown AOE move, something NIN currently lacks aside from ninjutsu. 300 potency is a lot, but it's on a 90 second cooldown. Monks are tossing out 220 potency elixir fields every 30 seconds, so why not.

70: Improved Sneak Attack (trait) Sneak Attack no longer shares a recast timer with Trick Attack.

Rather than adding a new big hitting single target ability, why not just let us use one we currently rarely touch? Trick attack kassatsu suiton sneak attack would be so fun...

Just some ideas. They likely sound pretty powerful, but every class would be getting fun new toys.

The question of 4.0 abilities is an interesting query. Currently, even my Disciples of the Land (ignoring Fisherman) have mostly full hotbars (I use 3). Additionally, we have the issue of cross hotbars, which are much more limited how you can expect even the best players to handle more skills. While messing around on Dark Knight, I found myself with two full cross hotbars, which currently, is the most you can swiftly switch between. Adding more abilities seems like an impossibility at this point if you want to keep the controller players content.

Now that we have the technical part down, the question of where Yoshida's team can go with the Jobs comes up. While yes, there are possibilities for some of them, I am divided as to how Yoshida's team, they could easily just toss more abilities to us with little foresight as to how we would handle them. However, I don't believe Yoshida's team will walk down that path, we've seen what skill bloat does to other MMORPGs in FFXIV's sub-genre, and it isn't pretty. This basically leaves Yoshida's team with two options, the first is to take a card from FFXI and not increase level cap, but offer us a different way to increase our relative power; the second, which I think is more likely, is to increase the level cap to 70, but also reduce the amount of abilities we possess, either through consolidating things like the weaponskill chains, or removing "needless" bloat by combining spells, abilities, or weaponskills. Examples of the second are things like making spells like Bio II replace Bio, while obviously increasing Bio II's power to compensate, and combining the Pugilist abilities Twin Snakes and True Strike.

The second method would clear up hotbar real estate to allow for newer, more interesting abilities. Additionally, many of the new core mechanics for Jobs introduced in Heavensward, require some further tinkering, there are many players who still dislike abilities like Enochian, Blood of the Dragon, and the Wanderer's Minuet. This would also give Yoshida's team the opportunity to rearrange certain skills, the spells Sword Oath and Shield Oath from Paladin comes to mind. Paladin has for a long time now has suffered while the other tanks excel in that ten level range. Additionally around level 30, most players should be getting introduced to core mechanics that they may not have yet seen, such as Enochian, Blood of the Dragon, Mudras, Gauss Barrel, the Wanderer's Minuet, Astrologian cards, tank stances, and whatever else they feel like adding to those that have yet to have this sort of defining Job mechanics.

Finally, those of us that have played games earlier in the series, see certain abilities that are strangely absent, such as a Black Mage's osmose, or Paladin's Esuna. By rearranging the current skill sets, Yoshida's team would have the room to add in abilities like those, as well as add in any unique skills they have created, but did not have the room for or simply couldn't find the room for.

My final point is simply to state, that I am highly anxious to see what Yoshida's team's answer will be, especially since Yoshida has proven to us already that he as a producer is very good at finding unique answers to hazardous situations.