Could we please get an official list of what is cheating and what is not?

[Azurymber]

As obvious as some of these things are (like win trading), SE has essentially justified them in the past. When people used to win trade wolves den, I'm fairly sure it was publicly stated people wouldn't be banned. And people were just asked to stop (which they didn't).

So now people are using that to justify win-trading to rank up. Which essentially ruins the entire pvp ranking system (which is meant to be competitive) for people who are legitimately ranking up.

My issue is that the ambiguity ruins a number of different in-game systems. And no one seems to be aware of whether or not things are reportable. People just debate the ethics of things (e.g. in the threads I linked to). But there is no concrete answer on whether or not it's ok. And a lot of people just assume no answer means it's alright to do it.

[KooKooKachoo]

SE has essentially justified them in the past.
Which essentially ruins the entire pvp ranking system for people who are legitimately ranking up.
My issue is that the ambiguity ruins a number of different in-game systems. And no one seems to be aware of whether or not things are reportable.

I do not even see your name on the leaderboard, how does win-trading even affect you? It surely hasn't ruined the people that have placed in the top 100.

If you or anyone else is looking for a justification why not just report people in question and get an answer from the GM instead of posting so many topics about the same thing. It is not really your job to worry about every single person. How has this personally ruined anything in game for you? As they say threads with more thumbs up get more attention if you aren’t getting notice by now they obviously don't care so you should probably just spend your efforts in game reporting them to GMs.

[Azurymber]

I do not even see your name on the leaderboard, how does win-trading even affect you? It surely hasn't ruined the people that have placed in the top 100.

If you or anyone else is looking for a justification why not just report people in question and get an answer from the GM instead of posting so many topics about the same thing. It is not really your job to worry about every single person. How has this personally ruined anything in game for you? As they say threads with more thumbs up get more attention if you aren’t getting notice by now they obviously don't care so you should probably just spend your efforts in game reporting them to GMs.

I'd like to PVP next round (I couldn't this time as I was too busy IRL). But if people are just going to win-trade to get ahead, there isn't much purpose to spending hours slowly grinding my way up the ranks, when people will just boost each other a week before completion and overtake everyone who worked their way up there.

Win trading will also deter other people from investing time in ranked PVP, which will make queue times longer.

For example, when people started forming win-trade linkshells in the wolves-den days, the queue times shot up drastically. because most people just win-traded to get the gear, rather than pvp legitimately (which obviously took longer).

By doing something simple like stating "Win-trading is against TOS", people who may risk win-trading/boosting to get ahead now, may decide it's not worth the risk. And thus Ranked PVP may remain somewhat viable as an actual ranked system.

Further, not everything is about me. There seems to be something ethically wrong with the idea that an individual who cheats their way up the ranks will knock off a person who legitimately worked their way up. Someone may have spent 100 hours to get one of the pvp rewards, and lose it because an individual was able to out-rank them in a single day through "shady" means.

[Alien_Gamer]

As others have stated, a defined list will never work. It just tells cheaters what to avoid without actually stopping them. Its also impossible to create a list of every concievable means of cheating; all you can do is create a set of broad guidelines to fit as many scenarios as possible. This is called the Terms of Service. Perfect? No. But its the best you'll get.

[Azurymber]

As others have stated, a defined list will never work. It just tells cheaters what to avoid without actually stopping them. Its also impossible to create a list of every concievable means of cheating; all you can do is create a set of broad guidelines to fit as many scenarios as possible. This is called the Terms of Service. Perfect? No. But its the best you'll get.

In a lot of other MMOs it's fairly regular for GMs to clarify ambiguous situations. Even FFXI was clear at times about what was considered cheating.

Some MMOs even publicly ban cheaters at times to create a deterrent.

For example in FFXI they mass-banned people who duped the drops from a boss in TOAU.
And in GW2 they did this: http://kotaku.com/hackers-mmo-charac...nne-1702670398

The issue here is that people don't seem to have any idea what is considered legit.
100s of people will say selling houses is against TOS
100s of people will say selling houses is ok

People will refer to GM posts in month-old threads that no one can really confirm to prove their point.

A list doesn't have to be absolute. It can just cover issues that are clear problems.

By not having a list, people who risk cheating benefit a lot.
While people who try to play fair kind of get screwed.

For example, someone who specifically bought a plot last major patch to sell it may make 50mil - 100mil profit.
While someone who thought it's against ToS did not have that opportunity.

When people shout in town to report those selling, other people shout back that it's allowed. That seems problematic.

[alimdia]

Almost everything you mentioned is a grey zone, they can't give you a clear answer because there isn't one, it's decided per case.

And the Amazon stuff has nothing to do with SE, that's Amazon's responsibility.

[Kerii]

This is as close as you're going to get. http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...6&id=5382&la=1
Contrary to popular opinion there is no such thing as a gray area in ToS agreements. It isn't a vague guideline, but a contractual agreement. As such, players should (in good conscious) be weary of the fact. To clarify:
1,4,5: Inappropriate behavior designed to disrupt the intended way of doing things. (Harmful to other players)
2: Disruptive to the game balance because it introduces factors that the developers didn't intend, nor can they control. In many cases ends in player disputes and harassment.
3,6,7: These are all types of fraud or scamming because you are trying to profit in the same manner that RMT would. Items for gil is still RMT if you bought the item from SE or the game.

[Zojha]

Contrary to popular opinion there is no such thing as a gray area in ToS agreements.

I would actually argue there is and name parsing as example. From your link:

The following activities are also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV.
•Modifying, analyzing, integrating and reverse engineering game data

It is very clearly prohibited to analyze the game data. Also, using third party tools is strictly prohibited. As such, parsing is a very clear cut case of cheating/prohibited activities. Despite this, Yoshi-P himself made a post on the PvP forums in which he considered changing log data for PvP in order to prevent parsing there, rather than acting against the violation as a whole. I'm very much inclined to argue that grey areas exist if the lead developer actively tries to protect a certain form of ToS violation.

[Kerii]

I would actually argue there is and name parsing as example. From your link:

The following activities are also prohibited in FINAL FANTASY XIV.
•Modifying, analyzing, integrating and reverse engineering game data

It is very clearly prohibited to analyze the game data. Also, using third party tools is strictly prohibited. As such, parsing is a very clear cut case of cheating/prohibited activities. Despite this, Yoshi-P himself made a post on the PvP forums in which he considered changing log data for PvP in order to prevent parsing there, rather than acting against the violation as a whole. I'm very much inclined to argue that grey areas exist if the lead developer actively tries to protect a certain form of ToS violation.

I am not sure we read the same post. You should read it over again.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post3696803

[Dalvy]

A list is not the solution. You will always have people debating the semantics, with their own sources to counter the argument.

Take botting for instance. That's one person paying several hundred dollarydoos to play 10 toons at once. Is it cheating? You may think so, but it's perfectly legal in itself.

"if it's not in the EULA there's nothing wrong with it."