CRAZY QUEUE TIMES!

[Eorzean_username]

NA is more lazy and requires more reward than getting good and having fun. In my experience across other games pvp is just not something a lot of NA players like to do unless the reward is good just for participation. True or not idk bur that's always been my experience.

If that perspective is correct, then NA has a choice between:

• Long dead queues, but with players that mostly want to be there and improve
• Short queues, but full of bribed players that just want their payoff (like MSQ Roulette)

I'm not sure which option is worse.


Given that scenario, though, would removing GC restrictions actually fix anything? It seems to be a popular proposal, but are we sure which of these two problems are actually holding up queues?

1. The queue is actually 5/10/12 (just waiting for those three more Adders). That's 27 total, so if the GCs weren't locked, instead we'd have 8/8/8 right now (match pop) and 1/1/1 waiting for the next pop.
2. The queue is actually 4/3/6. If we unlocked GCs, we'd still have 13 / 24 players and no pop (5/4/4), because interest for PvP is so low in NA region.

Maybe smaller 4v4v4 versions of Frontlines maps would be more realistic for NA region. Like if the queue can't field 24v24v24, it tries to field 8v8v8. And if it can't do that, it drops down to a Light Party version.

This would allow JP region's adequate status-quo to go undisturbed, while opening up more frequent pops for NA queues. (Unless NA PvP can't even field 12 players at once, which would be grim)

[Cynric]

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I'd say there's at least 100+ active pvpers per data center and more incoming when new modes / items release. The queues are just too long for frontline to be worth it. If gc restrictions were gone more people would play. Its rough to wait 30+ mins for a single match without being able to do much of anything while waiting.

As for incentive. It'd help if wolf marks were actually worth something. More items bought with the currency would be a great start.

[Eorzean_username]

So the basic idea behind the argument that 'Remove GC restrictions will fix it' is that you have 100 NA PvP players that all want to play right now (hypothetically).

But the distribution is so skewed that the queue isn't something like 19 / 20 / 23 at any given time, it's actually more like 15 / 20 / 65 for Adders / Maelstrom / Flames.

So even when the queue finally gets 9 more Adders and 4 more Maelstrom after, say, 20 minutes, it pops but still leaves 41 Flames players stranded at 0 / 0 / 41 waiting for the current match to finish (15-20 minutes) and then enough Adders and Mael to fill out the next queue (another 15-20 minutes), at which point the last batch of Flames players is now sitting out a third match in a 0 / 0 / 17 queue.

So that's why some players end up with enormous queues relative to others. Basically, the NA GC population is skewed much more heavily toward specific GCs, while the JP population is either more evenly-distributed, or just much larger, and thus doesn't have the same queue issues.

[kensatsu]

don't calculate the GC member if you don't have GC restriction XD,
No GC restriction just mean : when 72/48/ or 24 players is reach, the game will start
no matter how much mael/flamme or adder you have.
if we have 100 active players, it mean some players will have to wait the other games finish exept if the games tend to make 48 players happen because the current players playing is 100.
I think without GC restriction the queue with 100 players will be something like 20 minutes of queue, when now flammes wait for 1 hour.
We ask GC restriction to be removed, because the playerbase from every GC is not balanced.
You are right the community is small but also not divided right between the 3 GC.
Now we all know the playerbase is small, there no miracle but make flammes or mael wait for 1 hour will not make the pvp community to grow up, because who want to wait 1 hour except a crazy pvper ? XD
Also japanese players is asking for this GC restriction to be removed too, so even if the pvp is more active in japan, it's still asked...

[Eorzean_username]

Also japanese players is asking for this GC restriction to be removed too, so even if the pvp is more active in japan, it's still asked...

I do appreciate that reality. It seems a majority of dedicated PvP players (or at least the vocal ones), NA EU and JP alike, are frustrated by GC restrictions.

What I'm trying to parse out for my understanding though, is that there seems to be an important difference:

• JP dislikes GC restrictions because the restrictions are inconvenient and annoying. However, JP PvP is still healthy and active regardless.
• NA dislikes GC restrictions because the perception is that the restrictions are almost breaking the entire PvP system from functioning at all (low participation, uneven and bloated queue times, and fragmented community).

[Cynric]

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JP don't like pvp restrictions because it forces you to switch GC to play with friends.(Also does slow down queues however gonna detail why JP isn't affected for you)
We don't like them for the exact same reasons.


The difference is more or less everyone on JP is running on JST. A lot of people get home at the same time and play at the same time. Western times are erratic for many players.

Eastern players (not just JP) tend to enjoy pvp more, or at least wish to enjoy every portion of a game. They don't generally try to limit themselves to one aspect.

Western players have been complaining for years whenever pve and pvp overlap with one another, and this is true beyond just the scope of ffxiv.

Eastern players typically help out new players and try to get them used to the game. Increasing the population of people playing at any one time. Positive experiences shape positive players.

Western players typically yell at new players or anyone the moment they make a single mistake and will rage to no end even if absolutely nothing is on the line. Causing many new players to see pvp as a negative thing and not wanting to participate. Many western players always tell me they're afraid of pvp and pvpers.

I'm sure they switch GCs far less than we do as well.

When you look at how negative we are, how high our standards are, how little help we are, and how not fun we make pvp for other players because we only care about winning? Is it really such a wonder that the community is small. Every MMORPG has the same types of pvpers. We have an absolutely toxic pvp community.

The GC system would work for us too if new players didn't feel like they should quit right after their first match and we didn't switch to the winning GC every month.

Would taking the restrictions away help us? Of course it would help our queues in a band-aid sort of way. But usually any problem specific to western servers is the fault of the western community, and our gaming communities have only gotten worse over the years.

[awesomega]

I dont really care about the gc restrictions since I have no problem playing for the worst gc at any given time. Also to be honest I kind of like associating people with different gcs. Quite frankly I dont think the system is that bad because it makes people pay a price for jumping ship to the top grand company. However a suggestion I really liked was to see what gc needs to be filled for the que to pop. Currently my mael pops are 4-16min and my flame pops are 26-45min.
However, I appreciate the utter bs of playing all night and only getting 4 games in. I vote change it up!

[Freyar]

Tried to queue, estimate was "25 minutes", queue time spent was 90 minutes.

[Eorzean_username]

Tried to queue, estimate was "25 minutes", queue time spent was 90 minutes.

This is another frustration, the 'Average wait time' indicator is usually completely wrong, which only adds to the demoralization of trying to get queue pops. You can't plan your playtime around it at all, because '20 minutes' can easily become '120 minutes' and then you give up with not much to show for it.

I've read speculation that 'Average wait time' isn't tracked separately per Grand Company. So if Adders or Mael is getting in 15-20 minutes and Flames is waiting 45-60, it all gets averaged together into a meaningless blob that doesn't indicate an accurate time for any of the GCs.

Many western players always tell me they're afraid of pvp and pvpers.

That's an interesting point. For me at least, it's absolutely correct — once I realized PvP even exists in FFXIV (a separate issue that also doesn't help the population size), the number one issue that caused me to avoid FFXIV PvP for as long as possible, until absolutely forced to do it (because I needed a Wolf Mark weapon) was just fear of the PvP community.

Which is weird in retrospect, because once I resigned myself to the need to farm Wolf Marks and started asking questions and joining matches, I was mostly met with patience, encouragement, support, helpful answers, etc — and I've had a lot of genuine fun. (When the queue actually pops.)

For me personally, the PvP community's reputation was a lot worse than its reality. But that reputation definitely did discourage me from trying out PvP until forced to.

A factor that might contribute to this is that FFXIV doesn't offer any consequence-free PvP where you can casually try out PvP without the pressure of messing up someone's match. That's intimidating and discouraging, and it also impedes the ability of veteran PvPers to mentor and train curious new players.

[Cynric]

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I'd say the most vocal of the players who harass others in PVP for being new are the minority except in the case of The Feast. Ranked solo queue honestly brought out the worst in the community due to the huge detriment of having a new player on your team. Being new to Frontlines is usually not met with hostility and a new player in 8v8 wasn't often met with hostility.

So your point about needing something to inform players of PVP and a mode with nothing at stake needing to exist is definitely true. Unfortunately the queue for 8v8 feast couldn't be sustained and there was no real 4v4 practice mode. In fact there's pretty much no way currently to practice PVP without just jumping into a queue and trying your best. which is of course part of the problem.

As for how our community has a toxic reputation while also not really being that toxic. First off this isn't directly due wholly to FFXIV. This is a problem that has manifested over the years throughout any form of competitive play(and even casual play) involving western players in any game. You can look at the standards for PvE content and see how often people have freaked out about having a bonus, or new player who hasn't watched a video, etc. to see where part of that fear can come from.

Players think something like "If I get yelled at in PvE for missing a mechanic, what will happen in PvP where the fights aren't scripted?"

Then we have other PvP outside this game such as League of Legends, Call of Duty, World of Warcraft,etc. where the community can reach and absurdly toxic level. In these days plenty of people have seen games like this played or played them before themselves and the think "Every time I go against players people show their worst sides. I'd rather just not PvP in any game. If anything i'll watch someone else PvP."

Then to lend credit to this reputation of toxicity the ones who are the loudest wind up being the rudest as well. I myself rarely ever talk in PvP and I don't mind helping others, supposing I have the time to do so.

By time I mean that at least in the most recent competitive mode I really didn't have much time to explain to someone everything they need to know when coming into the feast solo queue. Then when situations like that arise most vets will go "Ugh, a new player? We lost. This sucks, why would you come into ranked, why don't you already know the rules?"

Then to further the frustration, and I hate to be that guy to say this but. The FFXIV community is probably the least skillful community as a whole I've ever played with in any game. I suppose the difficulty curve of PvE being low is partly to blame. But getting a new healer for example wouldn't as big of a detriment if they actually knew how to heal in the first place. While yes PvP is different than playing the PvE portion of the game there's no excuse for a Scholar for example where the only healing going out is Embrace, that wouldn't even cut it in hard PvE content, yet these are the types of new player you're most likely to see.

So the problem is a big one partially due to the design choices of FFXIV, and partially due to the overall reputation of the western community not just in FFXIV but in other games as well.

Unfortunately without something keeping older modes alive every time a new season comes out the level of toxic players will also rise, and the amount of new pvpers coming in will also decrease.

It's a terrible situation and the one way I can think to fix it is for them to start doing official tournaments, streaming matches for spectators, etc. However before they can even attempt that they'll have to learn how to properly balance PvP, and frankly they just are very bad at it.


Apologize lol. Super wall of text, I type too much sometimes xD;