WAR vs. DRK: Philosophy

[Cilia]

Ever play the game Persona 4?

Only about six times. (Naoto is my waifu.)

And I noticed the similarities after the big reveal quickly (even before then I had suspicions). I'd dredge up the old thread I made about it... but I don't wanna.

That aside, "Fray" is functionally similar to a Persona Shadow, the only difference being s/he possesses a human medium until the latter half of the 50 quest. Maybe. Possibly. Who knows.

[Belhi]

Man I've most late on posting on so many threads this patch!

Ok, my take is actually a bit different. I'll be curious to see if your view changes at all when you get to 60. The 50-60 do share some similarities between DRK and WAR but I think there is a fundamental difference too.

First and very important point with the Inner Beast. The WoL has never lost control of it. The 50-60 WAR quests explain why.

On a fundamental level the key similarity between the two is emotion. DRKs fundimentally draw on and manifest 'darker' emotions such as rage, fear, hate, pain, sadness, etc and use it as a weapon. In the 50-60 DRK quests it shows the key is to understand what you are fighting for and what invokes those emotions. The 'Flame in the darkness'. You balance your darkness by finding something to anchor you something to fight for. This is similar with WAR.

However I think the fundamental thing with the Inner beast is that its a pure and primal and above all honest representation of the desire of the WAR. Its not so much as harnessing darker aspects of ones nature as much as channeling primal emotional reactions. The reason Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain couldn't control the Inner Beast is that their desires were about being the strongest and proving that strength, driven by fear and desire to prove themselves, not a desire to protect the town. The WAR is kind of like the Hulk. When he is fighting for the right reasons he can be a hero. When he is just angry and confused or hurt he can be extremely dangerous and destructive. There is a purity to motivation and reason just won't control that.

Im trying, somewhat unsuccessfully to dodge around spoilers. I guess my point is that with a DRK its about harnessing your inner turmoil and pain and channeling it while anchoring yourself by remembering what your fighting for. With the Inner beast its about being honest with yourself and clear on why you are fighting.

On a side note, didn't they hint a live letter back ago or two that they might have Fray make a reappearance in the future? I kind of hope so. Fray is a fantastic way of conveying the WoL as a character.

[Tenkuu]

I am offended at even such a suggestion! Dark Knights have no great deeds to call their own, while my ilk has wrestles with BEARS! MOUNTAIN BEARS!

HULK ANGRY!11!!!!one1one!1

Isn't that the whole point though? DRKs take up causes that aren't their own rather than fight for themselves or to prove themselves to anyone. In fact, rather than trying to prove anything to anyone, they're risking themselves to do what they feel is the right thing. As Belhi was saying, DRK is truly the job that comes the closest to the defining parts of the WoL's personality.

Ever play the game Persona 4? I'm only at 45 on the DRK story but I always thought that the Shadows from that game are similar to Fray. Basically the concept is that your Shadow is the part of you that you reject, the parts of your personality that you don't want to admit exist. For instance one of the characters says he's on the adventure to get justice for a murdered classmate he had a crush on, but his Shadow reveals that he's actually doing it to stave off small town boredom. The Shadows can't be defeated unless a person accepts the Shadow as being a true part of them, but it's also important to realize that your Shadow isn't the whole truth. So while it's true that part of the WoL may be tired of everyone dumping their problems on him/her only to be taken for granted or betrayed it's also true that the WoL is doing this stuff because it's the right thing to do.

The WoL is tired of people dumping all of their problems on them, but the reactions we've had even in the entirety of 2.0, in a few cutscenes, already showed that we're not just some placid doormat. Our reactions, few though they may be, have ranged from surprise and shock to fear, worry, happiness, anger, annoyance, and sadness (Edda, T12 and T13). There are probably even more that I'm forgetting. DRK didn't feel like such a stretch because the WoL is shown to have those feelings, just unvoiced most of the time. We definitely got more chances to voice personal annoyance with a situation with 3.0 in general though, especially in 3.2 where one of the possible answers to Thancred asking what we're going to do about the Grand Melee is literally, in the Japanese version, that we're fed up with the whole thing (I loved that answer). The WoL has reacted to several events but hasn't let those events affect them to the same degree as other people.

[Tenkuu]

On a fundamental level the key similarity between the two is emotion. DRKs fundimentally draw on and manifest 'darker' emotions such as rage, fear, hate, pain, sadness, etc and use it as a weapon. In the 50-60 DRK quests it shows the key is to understand what you are fighting for and what invokes those emotions. The 'Flame in the darkness'. You balance your darkness by finding something to anchor you something to fight for. This is similar with WAR.

Technically speaking, all jobs involve some degree of darkness. With SMN, for instance, those who crave too much power end up drawing the attention of Ascians. Not to mention when you add in the 50-60 job storyline and the most recent auracite reveal, SMN easily feels like the job that's the most vulnerable to the appeal of its own power. When you consider the fact that unlike with the other jobs, a SMN is pretty much confirmed to be a primal killer, this is the job that has always felt the closest to the MSQ for me. You could even argue that as a primal killer, SMN is the most powerful job. Quick question: are Ascians considered the ultimate dark SMNs?

However I think the fundamental thing with the Inner beast is that its a pure and primal and above all honest representation of the desire of the WAR. Its not so much as harnessing darker aspects of ones nature as much as channeling primal emotional reactions. The reason Curious Gorge and Broken Mountain couldn't control the Inner Beast is that their desires were about being the strongest and proving that strength, driven by fear and desire to prove themselves, not a desire to protect the town. The WAR is kind of like the Hulk. When he is fighting for the right reasons he can be a hero. When he is just angry and confused or hurt he can be extremely dangerous and destructive. There is a purity to motivation and reason just won't control that.

I agree completely. This is exactly why I feel that DRK comes from a place of greater intentions than WAR. DRKs literally gain nothing from taking up someone else's cause and righting an injustice. They don't even do it because they want to be proven right, but more as a "fuck you" to the system. There is no glory in being a DRK, it's essentially about following your heart. BRD is probably similar in that respect.

Im trying, somewhat unsuccessfully to dodge around spoilers. I guess my point is that with a DRK its about harnessing your inner turmoil and pain and channeling it while anchoring yourself by remembering what your fighting for. With the Inner beast its about being honest with yourself and clear on why you are fighting.

Since we're delving pretty deep into jobs with comparisons, I think spoilers are to be expected and shouldn't be avoided in a thread like this. I think with both DRK and WAR, what you are fighting for is important to remember, otherwise you lose yourself in either selfish desire (WAR) or negative emotions (DRK).

On a side note, didn't they hint a live letter back ago or two that they might have Fray make a reappearance in the future? I kind of hope so. Fray is a fantastic way of conveying the WoL as a character.

I'm not sure whether you mean the actual Fray (the dead guy) or your darkside, but I'd be interested in seeing more of either one.

[Grayve]

I agree completely. This is exactly why I feel that DRK comes from a place of greater intentions than WAR. DRKs literally gain nothing from taking up someone else's cause and righting an injustice. They don't even do it because they want to be proven right, but more as a "fuck you" to the system. There is no glory in being a DRK, it's essentially about following your heart. BRD is probably similar in that respect.


I'm not sure whether you mean the actual Fray (the dead guy) or your darkside, but I'd be interested in seeing more of either one.

And that is why I love DRK. As for Fray's return, they just mentioned revisiting the quest without being to specific, it was that last LL from Japan, I think, the one that had the scenario writer as a special guest

[Tenkuu]

And that is why I love DRK. As for Fray's return, they just mentioned revisiting the quest without being to specific, it was that last LL from Japan, I think, the one that had the scenario writer as a special guest

I think I read that one, but I don't recall seeing anything about that. If you find it again, please show me a quote. I'd love to know the specifics of what was said.

[Ametrine]

I really need to level these jobs now.