The Joy of Crafting

[Okiura]

This is actually my post from another (hate) thread but i wanted to start a new topic in the correct place to remind SE that there are still those who enjoy crafting, and fear more changes (XI/WoW style auto-synth for example) to appease ppl who are never going to enjoy crafting.

Personally i think crafting is fun. i know it has a reputation for being a Enter/Xbutton mashing system but this isn't the case.

When you look at DoH and the way it works it's very similar to DoW/M and many parallels can be drawn;

Skills: Just like DoW/M you need to level other DoH classes for the essential skills.

Gear/Materia: Just like DoW/M Gear and Materia have a huge effect on DoH (post 1.19).

Exp/Leveling: now this is where the button mashing comes in, just like DoW/M (solo) there are two ways to get exp you can go for the easy synths the ones that only give 200-300 a synth or go for the tougher ones that offer a challange, the ones that give 600-700exp a synth. this is the same as killing a mob that is much lower level then you vs and mob the same lvl.

The lower ones gear/skills have very little influence on the outcome but the exp sucks and it very slow and very boaring. or you could do the tougher mobs/synths and this is where it becomes fun. if you try to button mash it you will fail the synth most of the time, same as if you try to fight a tougher mob w/o using any abilitys or weapon skills just and letting auto attack do the work you will die most of the time. it's this user interaction that makes any class enjoyable and not a boaring mindless grind.

I do not think SE should change (gimp) this system, the people who pefer battle classes are always going to see crafting/gathering as a chor. when the changes we're announced for 1.19 many ppl who disliked DoH prased the change however post patch they still dilike DoH (not a dig/flame of anyone here) this is just the natute of ppl.

there are many people that pefer DoH/L over DoW/M and when it comes to paying to play this is what they will be paying for. if this sytem is made automatic it will make the game less enjoyable for these players (and there are many). in the same way if they gimped the battle classes to make it all automatic (engage wait to see if you win or not) this is something i would not like to see either lol.

i agree the sytem could use some more tweeking like removing the action timer so you can actually chat in LS w/o failing, and new recipes to give more options on what to craft through the levels. but over all it's a good system and SE has done a very good job on it.

The luck aspect:

when it comes to completing a synth luck plays a very small role. know how, good gear and knowing what stats to boost etc is by far the biggest factor.

But when it comes to HQ'n luck palys a much bigger role, if it's a finished item then HQ'n is defentlyy more player based then luck. but when trying to HQ mats/parts no mater how good you are at crafting luck needs to be on your side and this imballance needs to be addressed, though looking forward to the future where all HQ mats = HQ iitem the current sytem works well (not perfect) as it'll make HQ gear more desirable.

[Ferth]

Granted I haven't had to plumb the depths of the crafting system in it's entirety, given that my highest crafting class is only 28...

But even at this juncture (which as I understand it isn't even a third of the way done with the sheer amount of exp needed to grind to get to level 50...) I just hate the process. Hate it so much that in 4 crafts I end up feeling like I need to punch someone. I never get the impression that any understanding I have of orb status, stats, or inputs ever overcome the sheer dumb luck and random chance that is involved in the system.

I can have one synth that yields 700 exp and it can go flawlessly. Not one "failure." And then the next 4 attempts will be nothing but failures. And some of those can be so riddled with failures yet I still somehow manage to pull off a successful synth, or sometimes I will start out well, be fairly confident that I will succeed and then get a critical failure followed by a destabilization and end up failing the synth.

It's an emotional roller coaster... which in and of itself is not a bad thing... but then tie in the fact that it's an emotional rollercoaster for hours on end if you actually want to achieve anything and it just wears you out.

After half an hour of crafting I can be just drained... frustrated... annoyed... and ready to commit violence... And that is not what I want out of a game.

If you can deal with that then bravo for you... But I'm fairly confident when I say that you are the minority.

I'm not arguing that everything needs to be dumbed down... I'm pretty sure that's where it's headed regardless of what we do or say at this juncture... but I recognize some of the value in the current system and agree that it would be nice if it could be maintained...

But at the same time if I have to choose between crafting as it is right now and something significantly simpler... I'd probably go for something simpler just because right now crafting is an extreme exercise in patience if you actually try to become invested in the system.

[Sephrick]

I was thinking about how crafting feels like messing with an orb rigged with explosives. Then it hit me, crafting is just like playing this

Best possible description I've seen.

[Okiura]

I agree with the Exp between levels, it's not that it's too much but it needs something doing with it, now to 50 isn't too bad but it's gonna be really bad to 99 once the cap is raised, DoW/M was slow(er) before the 1.19 patch but with the addition of exp chains exp is much faster.
What we need is somthing like this on Crafting if you're getting 600+ each synth then each synth after the 1st one should yeld more exp until fail or a preset time has passed. this would also give people a reason to actually Synth rather then just mash Enter. Locals are another good option but i know many ppl don't do these because Mashing the Enter key doesn't work well with them lol

There is an art to re-stablizing elements or choosing when to work through them to get to the end of the synth, this is somting that takes a bit of practice. Though there is always that one that was destin to fail from the start i normally get these 1 in 15.

I don't beleive i am the miniorty when it comes to enjoying the crafting system, other posts for example the 1.19 crafting dumbdown posts we're about a 50/50 split on ppl that enjoyed crafting and ppl that hated it.

I not saying the current system is perfect there is still improvements to made but the system as it is now works and works well. the addition of Exp chains, more recipes choices at each level (prob comming soon anyway) and removal of the action timer would be some good steps in improving on the current system.

[Okiura]

I was thinking about how crafting feels like messing with an orb rigged with explosives. Then it hit me, crafting is just like playing this

Actually imo this is pretty accurate, you are given all the clues on what safe to do and if you do it right you should suceed almost every time, there are gonna be occacions where there is no clear choice and you have to just go for it and of course "failure is always an option".

Also if you set up 10 mines on a 10x10 grid you can just mash left click and after a few games of that you'll find it boaring and tedious, or you could set up 40 mines on a 10x10 grid not too tricky but you have to work to complete it and you have that sense of aceviement once you do, obviously the main diffrence is in minesweeper the reward is the same smiley face with shades, with crafting the exp is much grater for the tougher option.

[MANTASTIC]

I was thinking about how crafting feels like messing with an orb rigged with explosives. Then it hit me, crafting is just like playing this

No, I actually like minesweeper. In fact, its what I do while crafting half the time!

[Hachiko]

I was thinking about how crafting feels like messing with an orb rigged with explosives. Then it hit me, crafting is just like playing this

If only crafting werent 3x as random as minesweeper.

To the OP:

There are two fundamental problems with Crafting: First and foremost is the effort to reward ratio. Yes, you can put a lot more effort into a synth and have a higher chance of success, and maybe even a chance of HQing. The problem is that from ranks 1-45 you primarily want to get EXP, and the fastest way to get EXP is to simply spam a semi easy synth with support for 300 exp while doing other things like watching netflix.

To put it in perspective. If I am doing DoH and chopping trees, the most efficient way to gather is to know where to chop for a given item, which comes with experience and a little bit of research, and then to hit those spots where items come up. If I just spam enter while gathering I will get NOTHING. Thus, gathering has it right (while not perfect), because the "easiest" thing to do gives the least (almost no) reward, while playing knowing what to do gives much more rewards. While on the other hand the fastest way to exp as a DoH is to spam enter, because spending 2-3 minutes per synth, with a 20-30% chance to fail on a high 600 exp synth is just plain inefficient compared to completing 2-3 250 exp synths on auto pilot in 2-3 minutes.

The other fundamental problem is the randomness. And the biggest problem here is that the randomness is non-mitigatable. That is to say, even if you outlevel the recipe, even if you equip and use all your skills, even if you have support, you might STILL fail for absolutely no reason even on a recipe at or below your level, and it will be COMPLETELY out of your hands.

When synthing feels more like simply making a series of dice rolls rather than strategic moves, there's hardly any reason people would want to pay attention. The randomness is so crippling because it takes the control from the player. Which further turns it into a game as "get as many tries in per hour" rather than "spend as much time as possible to try to make the best / highest quality items.

If there were some serious changes made to the system now. Particularly normalizing the success rates of the 3 synth modes, adding additional effects, and making success or failure depend on whether you choose the right types of synths rather than hoping you don't get an unlucky destabilization -> chaotic, it would be much improved.

That would also need to follow up with a realistic way to add more quality, in addition to the effect of quality being higher. Getting 100 quality on an item should net more than a bonus 10% exp, because it generally takes twice as long to do a synth at no bonus quality.

And ultimately synthing needs to just give more experience across the board. 150-600 per item should be changed to give less experience but giving it on each synth, rather than on each item. this would promote maximizing the number of synths on an item, which would make the most rewarding way to craft to be to put the most effort into each item. It would level your more quickly and more efficiently.

[Okiura]

@Hachiko: The random/luck aspect is such a small factor especially while completing a synth, unstable element and failed actions are uncommon and when the occour they are easilly managed.
This is not luck this is the right gear on the right class using the right skill. You wouldn't Stack PIE on GLA give them mage gear and expect them to tank would you, crafting is exactly the same. each DoH class has a stat that need to be boost and a secondarry stat alos get these up and learn/set the right abilities and you will rarley fail. i'm sorry to say the people that say this aspect is entirlly bassed on randomness are very wrong.

HQ'n well that's a diffrent Story and i mentioned that in my orignal post.

DoL now has one big flaw post 1.19... the mini game is now just an inconvenience. once you select where to set your notch and hit strike you can tell exactly where to stop the bar/ring to hit what you were aming for. there is no Skill in DoL anymore if you ever miss or fail a gathering attempt now then you either very tired or had a bit too much to drink.

This is very wrong cos what you have now is a mini game that guarantees 100% sucess while gathering and the only luck aspect is wether it's the item you set the notch for or not.
As DoL is now, the mini game has a 0% infulance on the outcome and that is sad. If crafting became as linear as DoL where you were guarnteed a 100% sucess rate it'll become very boarding and tedious like DoL is post 1.19.

[Ferth]

You're right, there is an art to correcting a destabilizing element, and knowing what gear to wear is extremely pivotal.

But the fact remains that I need to spend upwards of 3 minutes per synth fine tuning every action, choosing whether to wait or risk an action, each action making the synth more tense as I watch my durability wane and my progress inch closer to 100%...

and all of this for not even a fraction of a fraction of a level... that's just brutal.

not just because of the time constraint... but as I said... it's just incredibly draining. To have to be that focused for that long a time that many times in a row to see any appreciable gain is borderline torturous... and every failed action... every destabilization just makes it more tense, more frustrating...

If I had to do that for a final piece that represents significant loss should I fail I can understand that.

If I have to do that to make some damn linen thread... not quite so much....

[Okiura]

You're right, there is an art to correcting a destabilizing element, and knowing what gear to wear is extremely pivotal.

But the fact remains that I need to spend upwards of 3 minutes per synth fine tuning every action, choosing whether to wait or risk an action, each action making the synth more tense as I watch my durability wane and my progress inch closer to 100%...

and all of this for not even a fraction of a fraction of a level... that's just brutal.

not just because of the time constraint... but as I said... it's just incredibly draining. To have to be that focused for that long a time that many times in a row to see any appreciable gain is borderline torturous... and every failed action... every destabilization just makes it more tense, more frustrating...

If I had to do that for a final piece that represents significant loss should I fail I can understand that.

If I have to do that to make some damn linen thread... not quite so much....

The amount of Exp per synth is pretty brutal it's not so bad going to L50 but going higher once the cap is raised going to be a killer and you have no arguments form me here i fully agree that somiting needs to be done, don't make it easy to get exp but make it possible to get more exp the same way they have with DoW classes.

I know what your saying about not wanting to go through the pain of the 2-3 min synth for a piece of linen thread but you need to think that this is part of leveling that craft, I could just as easly say that I don't want to fight a Non NM mob just take one swing at it and it dies then only actually fight NM's. this is a nessacary step in RPG's to learn how to use any class to it's full potential.