[MCH Request] Is it possible to have the 30 second ammo time-out removed?

[Underdog2204]

No, I don't think it's strong

I do and think you are understating it's usefulness... It's especially easy to see how big a change it can make when using it for AoE rotations. It's not as easy to say "well SMM/SCH has aetherflow" when our toolkit is entirely different. SCH's need their stacks on hand to react accordingly to changing circumstances so SMN gets it's too as they share the same mechanics and they both only get 3 per use. We get 9 bullets in the same amount of time and each of those bullets gives us +20 potency and a guarenteed proc, a proc you may not have got without them, so it could technically be counted as a +220/+200 potency for every clean shot you get.

How many 2nd wildfires have you got though without ammo whilst pulling off the same amount and type of shots as you would have if you did have it? I don't think it has ever occured with me, mind you the RNG gods really hate me.

You cannot compare them like they are the same, they are vastly different just as the jobs themselves are.

Is MCH ammunition so strong that it needs punishment for not timing correctly on boss downtime?

No, I don't think it's strong enough to warrant being able to fall off at all, and consequently that's not why I want it removed, but you put those words in my mouth. If you hadn't said that maybe I wouldn't be defensive?

So what words did I put in your mouth again? Oh yeah I didn't -_-

I'm not saying you are asking for buffs to get stronger, I'm simply stating that a QoL change like this could have consequences in the future. Especially since it's on a rather intergal part of the jobs toolkit.

[Shurrikhan]

I don't see the problem with the timer.

Why are people holding onto ammo of over 30 seconds anyway? Even traveling between trash pulls doesn't take longer than that. Why waste two of those that you have saved on your inevitable Hot Shot and Lead Shot? Why ask for a change that could very easily cause loss of synergy with the timers on other skills?

I like the "in battle" use of Ammo on MCH... The last thing we need is something to help boost the opener and I hardly find "if I want to afk pre-pull" a compelling argument.

But yes TC ammo is strong that is why you want the change, if it wasn't this wouldn't bother you.

Nor is "it's already strong" a compelling argument to have a finite ammo duration, especially when it's equivalent apart from that annoyance, Aetherflow, is stronger still.

QoL changes are not DPS changes. Being able to afk while waiting a minute for someone else's CDs to come back and the pull to start is not asking for more opener dps. It is asking for the same QoL that every other job in the game experiences during pre-pull.

Parallel topic:

"...that is why you want to change..."

is pretty clearly putting words in someone's mouse. It's also mistaken, as ammo's strength has never been the reason given for wanting the change anywhere in the OP.

He simply asked, rhetorically it would seem, if it was so strong that it somehow warranted a tacked-on annoyance. I would argue that it is not. On the other hand, I'm not sure what you are arguing at all, as the question here has always been first "should we get rid of the annoyance" and only secondly "does the ability's strength warrant that annoyance". You argue that it is strong, but where is the reasoning for that annoyance being the best balancing addition, and against what? Telling someone what their thoughts were and then attacking a subtopic without even addressing the main point is a pretty good way to get people defensive, believe it or not.

[Aeliott]

Sigh, it was a rhetorical question. Even on long downtime there's nothing stopping you refreshing it, and in most cases you will anyway even if there wasn't the threat of it dropping off. If my rhetorical question confused things then I'm sorry, but your argument to keep the timer is still unclear. The "punishment" you seem to be proposing and justifying only works if you actively let it drop or forget to reapply in those rare moments, and even then it's such a weak (self-) punishment. -20/40 potency, because with that much downtime you're not gonna get a combo proc with it. It's a gain to have ammo up before a pull. Even if it's on Hot/Lead. In raids, you spend a lot of time having to refresh it before pulling while waiting for cooldowns / strat discussion etc. In raids you want to do as much damage as possible. I find it annoying having to constantly refresh when I want to play optimally, so am seeking a reason if any as to why it can't be removed. That's all.

You said "so I can AFK" isn't a good enough reason to remove it (there's more word-twisting) but still haven't proposed a logical reason it should stay either. I'm not against justifications for it if there are any, but nothing you said in your original response makes sense...but the annoying part is it ended with a fictional jab at me wanting some un-needed buff without even pointing out how my request results in such a thing. I can understand a rhetorical question being misunderstood, but come on, of course I'm irritated by that.

[Underdog2204]

snip

So I didn't put words into your mouth? Taking option 1 and "feigning outrage over nothing"?

Ofc the question is "rhetorical" to you because the possibily of ammo being a strong cd is not an option *rolls eyes*

Being irritated is your problem, as you are the one who took it that way in the first place. If I was going to have a "jab" at you I would've been far less discreet about it...

[Cabalabob]

I think the point here underdog is that you haven't given any plausible reason why it shouldn't be taken off the timer other than "unforeseen consequences".

You said it would be too powerful on the opener. And something about AoE. But what you've failed to realise is that you can already keep ammo up indefinitely for both those scenarios (or any, actually) just by using quick reload. The ammo timer is 30 seconds, quick reload has a 15 second recast and refreshes the timer. All this change would do is make it so you don't have to constantly spam quick reload to keep a stack of 5 ammo up. Which as it stands doesn't make sense anyway because ammo generally doesn't magically vanish from guns after 30 seconds.

[Myon88]

I've always thought that the better solution would be to give both Reload and Quick Reload no cooldown if you are not in combat. (If a fight ends with it still on cooldown, the cooldown still ticks down normally and you have to wait).

The reason for that is - particularly during progression raiding - wipes are downtime where you get to catch a bit of a break and maybe tab out for a few seconds. So I never liked prepping ammo that much because it requires me to start paying attention 30s to a couple of minutes before the next pull, sitting there refreshing Quick Reload when I could catching a breather. I really dislike that.

This way, you could come back when your tank is hitting his pull macro, hit Reload for a 5-ammo opener and still open normally (which is exactly the same as you hitting Quick Reload 5 times, 75 seconds before the pull, just made more convenient).

[ShinSenpai]

Honestly all I want is to have ammo/Huton to not expire until you enter combat.

Also I don't the reason why we have ammo expire in the first place aside from being able to have 5 ammo at the beginning everytime.

[Rawrz]

/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.15>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/ac "Quick Reload" <wait.30>
/macroicon "Quick Reload"
/echo End of Reload

I think it should be like aetherflow, but in the mean time, this macro should help your qol if you need to afk. With a macro icon and an echo at the end, it gives you about 5 minutes of afk time. It also quick reloads you to full ammo as quickly as possible.

[RiceisNice]

There's also the aspect in PvP of going in with full ammo and both reload abilities off cooldown rather than refreshing it (and not having Q.reload off cooldown).

But eh. It's not big of enough of a QoL improvement for me to push for it.

[CGMidlander]

There's also the aspect in PvP of going in with full ammo and both reload abilities off cooldown rather than refreshing it (and not having Q.reload off cooldown).

But eh. It's not big of enough of a QoL improvement for me to push for it.

The change doesn't have to be applicable to pvp though. A lot of skills have properties that are modified in pvp.