Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Awha]

Hey,

Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement around tank entitlement vs group entitlement, which inherently holds more value. What started this conversation within our discord is that group of players within our discord removed a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back. The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

Reason the debate started within the discord was because certain people felt that they were in the wrong that tanks inherently set the pace of the run no one else end of story. The provided reasons that removing someone for not doing large pulls is selfish since it will overall not speed up the group. When I posed the question why does a tank deserve special treatment over any other role? If the group wants to do the large pulls the tank should at the very least try. If this go south so be they can adjust after.

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it. Have in the past removed dps for refusing to AoE, or healers that do not feel like doing damage and just stand around between downtime.

I am autistic so I tend to have a black and white view on many things, and they did point this out that I am missing the context but no one was able to show me within the context how the tank role is granted a certain level of entitlement that say a dps that refuses to aoe is granted.

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story. Overall just confused since for longest I have been told everything is a group effort enmity control, dos, but pace seems to be a different beast for some. Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

Agonizes for the spelling and grammatical mistakes.

[Canadane]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

[Awha]

Tanks indeed set the pace.
The pace should be as fast as possible.

Possible to whom, the tank or the group? This is what is confuses me statements like the tank does set the pace, but it should be as quick as possible. Who will be the judge that determines what the group is capable of? The tank? Or the group that is trying to reassure the tank that they will be fine and the group can handle it?

[Fyce]

It is valid for the tank to refuse doing big pulls, as others have no rights to force someone into playing in a specific way if that person doesn't want to. But if enough people think that someone isn't playing the way the group expect, then it is accepted to get a kick going for "differences in playstyle". It's just a case of irreconcilable gameplay, so a kick is the best option. As long as the discussion remained cordial (in which case, the tank shouldn't really take it personally).

However, it seems illogical to kick a tank and wait for a new one rather than finishing an already in-progress run. They probably wasted more time doing that.

[Fyce]

Overall this is mindset that the group was within their right to remove the tank, and they just asked the discord group for a tank to fill in, the wait was not that long for them since I filled in, it just got heated in the discord because when someone asked why the tank was removed they gave the reason. Calling them selfish and entitled etc . . . which got me thinking since I do not understand why people have this view.

Yes, they were in their rights to remove the tank. And people were also right to call them selfish and entitled. One might also argue that the tank was selfish and entitled too.

Again, it's just a case of irreconcilable gameplay, and the minority get kicked. There is no clear rule about this, simply because it's a case by case basis.
The only "rule" that exists is: when gameplay differences are the issue, the majority wins. And that's it.

[Lumadurin]

I relish in attempting to pull aggro off of tanks who do single-pulls despite them and the healer being more than geared enough to handle the incoming damage.
As a tank main I actually wince harder when I see it because I understand how inept they really are. At the bare minimum all you're expected to do is mash one button + a couple of cooldowns.
Of course there's multiple factors in play, I understand if someone who's new to tanking isn't very confident at 50, and I'll respect that. But if you're pulling this stunt in Expert Roulette and have multiple max level jobs you're just disrespecting the time of 3 other people.

[Awha]

Yes, they were in their rights to remove the tank. And people were also right to call them selfish and entitled. The two are not incompatible.

Oh I get they were within their right, sorry if maybe I did not explain myself my confusion did not lay between if they had the right to remove the tank or if people had the right to complain. My confusion came from why do people seem to think thanks inherently are entitled to more leeway in terms of style of play over other roles. As I said when I asked within the discord they mentioned context matters, but I do not see the difference in context. If everything in the group is based around the collective effort then why for some reason do people feel tanks get a slide due to scarcity or anxiety. Overall this stems from the mindset that I have seen throughout my time playing this game, tank sets the pace no matter what.

[Hash_Browns]

No. I make the rules because the party can survive better with me being slapped around then the DPS and Healers. If I'm not there they're not advancing even with all the cures in the world.

Yeah, I ain't buying that.

I main all 3 healers, and I've never had a tank make large pulls and had to say "Hey buddy, slow down, that's too much." except in lower level dungeons (like below level 30) where the group doesn't have much AOE damage going on.

Tanks should be able to easily handle large pulls at high levels if they know what they are doing.
In the level 70 content I expect the tank to have an idea (as long as they aren't new to the dungeon) on how much they can handle, and not slap me with constant 4 enemy pulls.

When you pull less it means everyones DPS is worth less.

I relish in attempting to pull aggro off of tanks who do single-pulls despite them and the healer being more than geared enough to handle the incoming damage.
As a tank main I actually wince harder when I see it because I understand how inept they really are. At the bare minimum all you're expected to do is mash one button + a couple of cooldowns.
Of course there's multiple factors in play, I understand if someone who's new to tanking isn't very confident at 50, and I'll respect that. But if you're pulling this stunt in Expert Roulette and have multiple max level jobs you're just disrespecting the time of 3 other people.

This I can understand. Tanks that are new to dungeons/new to tanking obviously shouldn't charge ahead.

[Awha]

I relish in attempting to pull aggro off of tanks who do single-pulls despite them and the healer being more than geared enough to handle the incoming damage.
As a tank main I actually wince harder when I see it because I understand how inept they really are. At the bare minimum all you're expected to do is mash one button + a couple of cooldowns.
Of course there's multiple factors in play, I understand if someone who's new to tanking isn't very confident at 50, and I'll respect that. But if you're pulling this stunt in Expert Roulette and have multiple max level jobs you're just disrespecting the time of 3 other people.

Overall I agree with you, the new part is where I slightly differ, I do feel that is a group is encouraging the player to step out their comfort zone, and to simply try but they refuse to try due to shyness or fear of failure, or simply because they are new to the game then I would question their actions. If that makes sense, I do feel even newer tanks should try and do larger pulls if the group is telling them to do so. Sure it may end in a wipe, but without trying they will never know.

[Fyce]

Oh I get they were within their right, sorry if maybe I did not explain myself my confusion did not lay between if they had the right to remove the tank or if people had the right to complain. My confusion came from why do people seem to think thanks inherently are entitled to more leeway in terms of style of play over other roles. As I said when I asked within the discord they mentioned context matters, but I do not see the difference in context. If everything in the group is based around the collective effort then why for some reason do people feel tanks get a slide due to scarcity or anxiety. Overall this stems from the mindset that I have seen throughout my time playing this game, tank sets the pace no matter what.

I edited my previous post as it didn't convey what I meant correctly.

As far as "tank set the pace", this is only relevant because of the game's mechanics. If you disregard the mechanics, then it comes back to the majority deciding what to do, regardless of who plays what job.
The tacit rule of the tank being the one who set the pace is definitly not engraved in stone. Most people go with it simply because it's a pain to speak up and fight others about what to do... So almost everyone just silently do whatever the tank wants to do. But sometimes, people do speak up, which is what happened in your situation, and therefore the majority won, as it should.