Class balance...

[Exira]

Sigh ...

I suppose I may have misinterpreted your past post.

That's cute, but no...

You're hopeless.

Also. Berserk CD: 90s. Raw Intuition: 90s

Not always, no...

Why cover if you are nullifying burst? (Referring to double edged sword utility.)

Players running from Cover is just like really bad players, they're just hopeless at that point. I wouldn't base your own power over others stupidity. lol

Yes, we can agree that PLD has support damage.

We definitely disagree here.

Being able to fluidly switch between offense/defense mid-combat is part of PvP. Preventing deaths while your team is pressuring with offense is excellent. DPS burst is more than enough to kill someone, especially when synced together, and the Melees(and MCH) can stun for themselves. Reducing the other teams offense (mitigating their burst period [usually buffs]) allows your DPS/Healer to live longer, prolonging your offensive push/getting kills. When a DPS dies, a huge chunk of offensive pressure is lost. When a Healer dies, more likely than not, you have to retreat less you risk the two dps dying.

Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate those kills. It can be used for pure defense, but using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead.

I can't even.

there's no such thing as completely preventing kills from happening if both teams are playing optimally. smart players play around defensive cd's and execute properly. and LB's are a natural doom counter for death.

Oh I missed the part in my post where I said every death can be prevented. My B.

Smart PLD's react to buffs/position and don't prematurely pop cds for hopes that the opposing team doesn't notice.

[Februs]

You're hopeless.

Err ... Sure?

Also. Berserk CD: 90s. Raw Intuition: 90s

Ah, my mistake. I confused one timer and mixed up Raw Intuition with Vengeance. Good thing that changes absolutely nothing about the War Burst rotation. It still works out exactly the way I said it does, with Berserk-prepped double Fell Cleaves followed by Berserk-prepped Triple Fell Cleaves every 120 seconds. No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of Fell Cleaves, and Pld cannot mitigate all of them, let alone the actual Dps bursts on top of that.

Why cover if you are nullifying burst? (Referring to double edged sword utility.)

Three reasons:

• 1) Cover does not work on magic damage. Just because you are covered, does not mean you are safe. Blm's, Smn's, Drks, Dps Limit Breaks, and any hyper aggressive Healers can still murder a covered target. The only way to stop this is with stuns.
  
  
• 2) A Pld cannot effectively stun lock more than one target at a time. After the initial stun (4s), the diminished stun duration of the next immediate stun is roughly the same amount of time as a Pld's GCD (2s). This means that, after their initial stun, a Pld MUST prioritize ONE target, otherwise they will lose both.
  
  
• 3) To prioritize kills. Again, this follows the "I want to win" perspective of things, but Plds, like healers, have to prioritize targets. Not everyone's life is equal in the Feast. Say, for example, that my dps team is a hair's breadth away from murdering a target with 200 medals, but one of them is also about to die with 100 medals or less. I will prioritize assisting the kill even if it means letting one of my own dps die. Why? Because I'll still be up 100 medals on the enemy team. Assisting in that kill often means stunning the target, or stunning the healer (if they're not up for CC resist).
  
  The short and ugly of this is that, even as a Pld, I cannot save everyone from death. My defensive CD's and CC just don't stretch that far. That's a fact. That said, I really don't have to save everyone as long as we are leading in points. The logic here is that, so long as you are gaining more medals than you are losing, you will win. With that in mind, the kill credit should always be prioritized over defense, unless you stand to lose more than you gain.

Being able to fluidly switch between offense/defense mid-combat is part of PvP.

The most polite way I could think of to say this is that at least you got part of this right ...

A dps burst very strong. That's true, but that doesn't mean that they can score kills purely on their own, nor should they have to. By going purely defensive, a Pld is resigning 100% of the offensive work on the Dps. I really shouldn't have to say anything about why that is just plain bad, but expecting the Dps to do 100% of the offensive work without support not only puts a lot of undue responsibility on their shoulders, but it is also extremely optimistic of their capabilities. Further, Healers can, and often do, out-heal a Dps's maximum burst without the aid of extra defense. How do I know this? Because a lot of teams run with Wars. Wars do next to nothing to boost party defense; yet, their healers can keep the team alive, no problem.

Another issue is that you are still, dramatically, misinterpreting Pld's CC and utilty. Case in point:

the Melees(and MCH) can stun for themselves.

You're inexperience with Pld is really showing through here, because if you actually understood a Pld's CC you would never, EVER, recommend any other job to use their stun for CC purposes while they have a Pld on their team, unless they had absolutely no other choice. The reason for this is that Pld's stun lasts longer. Any stun used by ANY other job (melee, mch, or even whm) is wasted CC, especially on the first hit. If you hit my primary target with a stun before my first Shield Bash, you just shaved 2 seconds off of the time during which they are incapacitated. That's a 50% reduction. If you hit my target with a stun during my stun rotation, you run the risk of initiating their resist early by overriding my stuns, making my last hit useless.

The only CC that should be used in conjunction with a Pld's stuns is a caster's sleeps, and even then, those sleeps should come before or after a Pld's full stun rotation, not during it. Otherwise, they stand to cause as much harm to their own CC as they do to mine.


Another thing was this:

I can't even.

And yet, in the same breath you also said:

Reducing the other teams offense (mitigating their burst period [usually buffs]) allows your DPS/Healer to live longer, prolonging your offensive push/getting kills.

I ask you, what exactly do you think I meant when I said that "Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate kills" and that "using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead"? Further, what do you think your advocating for with the above comment?

Using Pld's defensive CD's to sustain dps offense is EXACTLY what I meant when I said that their kit is designed to facilitate kills. It allows the Dps to push harder and longer. Using stuns effectively only makes scoring kills that much easier. The fact that Pld's party mitigation buffs are passive only strengthens this point, because passive mitigation does not actually prevent deaths. It only prolongs life (and yes, there is a difference). Without active mitigation (ie: healing), the target can and will die. So, again, reserving Pld's CD's for purely defensive utility is a waste.

And before you ask, playing defensively is TOTALLY different. You would know this if you had more experience with the job. There is a difference between burning Testudo to sustain an assault versus burning it to cover a retreat, for example. A Pld cannot use it for both. The CD is too long. So they have to chose what the best use is. The same goes for their use of Cover and their stuns. There is a huge difference between using them to try and support the healer versus trying to support the dps. That difference dictates the flow of battle. You can either spend that buff time pressuring the enemy, or you can spend it being willfully pressured by them. Choosing to play defensively is fine if you're already in the lead and are willing to play ring around the rosie at home base for the last 2 or 3 minutes, but if you're evenly matched or losing, you won't be doing your team any favours by using your CD's in such a manner.

If you want to see this difference first hand, then I would recommend you finish leveling your Pld and give it a roll in Feast. You'll see that things don't work out the way you seem to think they do.

[Exira]

Ah, my mistake. I confused one timer and mixed up Raw Intuition with Vengeance. Good thing that changes absolutely nothing about the War Burst rotation. It still works out exactly the way I said it does, with Berserk-prepped double Fell Cleaves followed by Berserk-prepped Triple Fell Cleaves every 120 seconds. No matter how you slice it, that's a lot of Fell Cleaves, and Pld cannot mitigate all of them, let alone the actual Dps bursts on top of that.

The fact that you believe that a buff that increases a WAR's attack power by 50% being on a 30s cd vs 90s cd makse no difference to WAR burst is mind boggling. The idea behind, "Any increase over the average threshold is a bust, no matter how small." is suspect as well. A Ninja using Jugulate must be considered burst from that perspective. Fell Cleave is part of the Warrior basic rotation, and an unberserked , no follow-up, solo Fell Cleave is not worth mitigating for obvious reasons. Its equivalent to trying to mitigate a DRG's every raw Full Thrust. No one is trying to mitigate solo, single Fell Cleaves, just waste of utility.

Three reasons:

• 1) Cover does not work on magic damage. Just because you are covered, does not mean you are safe. Blm's, Smn's, Drks, Dps Limit Breaks, and any hyper aggressive Healers can still murder a covered target. The only way to stop this is with stuns.
  
  
• 2) A Pld cannot effectively stun lock more than one target at a time. After the initial stun (4s), the diminished stun duration of the next immediate stun is roughly the same amount of time as a Pld's GCD (2s). This means that, after their initial stun, a Pld MUST prioritize ONE target, otherwise they will lose both.
  
  
• 3) To prioritize kills. Again, this follows the "I want to win" perspective of things, but Plds, like healers, have to prioritize targets. Not everyone's life is equal in the Feast. Say, for example, that my dps team is a hair's breadth away from murdering a target with 200 medals, but one of them is also about to die with 100 medals or less. I will prioritize assisting the kill even if it means letting one of my own dps die. Why? Because I'll still be up 100 medals on the enemy team. Assisting in that kill often means stunning the target, or stunning the healer (if they're not up for CC resist).

1) The point is, if the burst is already being stopped/mitigated/delayed/peeled, there is no reason to cover in that time frame. It's common knowledge that Cover doesn't work on Magic. smh

2) However, a PLD can effectively peel with their stuns, which is another benefit of stunning pursuers.

3) It's refreshing to know that you are aware of an aspect of the Feast. Although, if like you said, CC is being resisted, and you have within your power to save your DPS (ensuring the death of a target) of meaningful 100 medals, it's worth, considering an alive DPS does more damage than a PLD.

The short and ugly of this is that, even as a Pld, I cannot save everyone from death. My defensive CD's and CC just don't stretch that far. That's a fact. That said, I really don't have to save everyone as long as we are leading in points. The logic here is that, so long as you are gaining more medals than you are losing, you will win. With that in mind, the kill credit should always be prioritized over defense, unless you stand to lose more than you gain.

As already confirmed of said knowledge in my past post.

More Basic Knowledge of Feast.

The most polite way I could think of to say this is that at least you got part of this right ...

A dps burst very strong. That's true, but that doesn't mean that they can score kills purely on their own, nor should they have to. By going purely defensive, a Pld is resigning 100% of the offensive work on the Dps. I really shouldn't have to say anything about why that is just plain bad, but expecting the Dps to do 100% of the offensive work without support not only puts a lot of undue responsibility on their shoulders, but it is also extremely optimistic of their capabilities. Further, Healers can, and often do, out-heal a Dps's maximum burst without the aid of extra defense. How do I know this? Because a lot of teams run with Wars. Wars do next to nothing to boost party defense; yet, their healers can keep the team alive, no problem.

A DPS can score kills entirely on their own, that is a FACT. You may not be able to, or you may think those that do are hacking. Yet, time and again it is happening. Solo killing targets is how us DPS climb. The fact that DPS aren't known to solo kill is just bad. DPS don't depend on low-tier PLD's to logically stun healers, since more often than not, low gold or lower tier PLD's have the healer on Stun DR before the actual fight even begins.

Being as though your rank is shrouded by obscurity, I'm assuming you are often paired with awful DPS who can't burst well. You seem to have low-expectations of a dps, and high-expectations of healers. I have a strong feeling that you are not aware of what the maximum burst potential for a particular DPS is. In the instance in which the healer had no issue healing a maximum burst, the assumption that the DPS were bad probably never crossed your mind.

Also, no one said anything about going 100% defense as PLD, I said switching between offense/defense, stop twisting my words.

Another issue is that you are still, dramatically, misinterpreting Pld's CC and utilty. Case in point:

You're inexperience with Pld is really showing through here, because if you actually understood a Pld's CC you would never, EVER, recommend any other job to use their stun for CC purposes while they have a Pld on their team, unless they had absolutely no other choice. The reason for this is that Pld's stun lasts longer. Any stun used by ANY other job (melee, mch, or even whm) is wasted CC, especially on the first hit. If you hit my primary target with a stun before my first Shield Bash, you just shaved 2 seconds off of the time during which they are incapacitated. That's a 50% reduction. If you hit my target with a stun during my stun rotation, you run the risk of initiating their resist early by overriding my stuns, making my last hit useless.

The only CC that should be used in conjunction with a Pld's stuns is a caster's sleeps, and even then, those sleeps should come before or after a Pld's full stun rotation, not during it. Otherwise, they stand to cause as much harm to their own CC as they do to mine.

Funny, because I'm 100% positive that my experience with and against PLDs far outweighs yours by MILES. You seem to have briefly forgotten that PLD's stun is limited by their GCD. In which case, stunning a Good Healer means an instant Purify if an opposing PLD is nearby with his DPS, thus making that first 4 second stun moot and leaving PLD to wait on their GCD for the follow-up. A monk doing the first (3s) stun baiting a purify allows the PLD to follow up with an immediate stun successfully locking-up for the kill on the healer. Also, Good DPS don't require 7s of a stun to kill a target.

As said by you, PLD's can't be everywhere at once or lock down multiple players for long at once ("otherwise they will lose both"), so peeling with a stun is not wasted CC. MNK/MCH (aoe stun)/ and even WHM have 3s stuns. Thus making your claim of 50% reduction flawed. Before you further misconstrue my words , stunning a healer is not the same as peeling a dps/tank.

I ask you, what exactly do you think I meant when I said that "Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate kills" and that "using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead"? Further, what do you think your advocating for with the above comment?...

By that logic, Healer's entire kit must be "designed to facilitate kills" because they allow you to keep your offensive push as well. Hence, the generalization of such a vague comment can be applied to a multitude of jobs, in such, requiring a better statement to describe PLD in its entirety. The act of stunning dps/tanks, flashing, clemency-ing teammates, and covering are all DEFENSIVE actions that should not only be used in your only forms of defense, Turtling and Retreating. Passive mitigation does save live's such as making normally unhealable burst, healable. Cover saves lives all of the time. Much like in real life, death is inescapable, but lives are saved everyday. Was not aware I had to make that clear.

Without active mitigation (ie: healing), the target can and will die. So, again, reserving Pld's CD's for purely defensive utility is a waste.

Clemency. Also, your assumptions on what I am actually saying is so flawed. Never did I say PLD's CD should be reserved for Turtling/Retreating.

And before you ask, playing defensively is TOTALLY different. You would know this if you had more experience with the job...

Again, the experience I have with said job goes leaps-and-bounds. At this point you're giving me the impression you are just throwing out Testudo without taking into consideration CDs being used, or CDs already used. Your use of Cover and stuns is sounding suspect as well. Majority of PvP is play-by-ear since this isn't PvE, and players don't do the same thing every game. As a PLD, react to the ever-changing flow of combat, and adjust.

I recommend that you get your facts in order before claiming someone hasn't played as or with a PLD.

Alt meet Presumption, Presumption meet Alt.

Alas, I'm bored of these walls of text. I must refrain from corroding intellect by seizing to entertain those that may be mistaken for simple-mindedness.

I take my leave from this pointless discussion.

[Februs]

The fact that you believe that a buff that increases a WAR's attack power by 50% being on a 30s cd vs 90s cd makse no difference to WAR burst is mind boggling.

I'm really starting to wonder if it's even worth responding to you at this point, because you genuinely seem to be beyond help.

Firstly, I never said that Berserk made no difference to War's burst. You want to talk about twisting words around? This was a nice job right here. What I actually said, if you had cared to read it, was that the timer being 90s doesn't change their burst rotation ... Because it doesn't. Even on a 90s timer, War's can still prep both their double and triple Fell Cleave. Short of writing out their full rotation, I'm not sure how I could possibly make this simpler to understand. This isn't rocket science, so I'm not sure why you're struggling with it.

1) The point is, if the burst is already being stopped/mitigated/delayed/peeled, there is no reason to cover in that time frame. It's common knowledge that Cover doesn't work on Magic. smh

It's comments exactly like this one that make me question your experience. You say that you know that Cover doesn't work on magic damage, yet you don't see the benefit to splitting a Cover and stun? Seriously??

Here's some simple groundwork for you: 1) You cannot completely stop a burst. All offensive buff timers last longer than the maximum CC. So, the best you can hope for is to delay and mitigate. 2) A Pld cannot efficiently stun multiple targets at once. I don't know why you're asking me to repeat this, because it couldn't be more simple. Even at max duration, a 4s stun is not long enough to stop a target from pursuing a party member, especially if they use purify. It also takes 6 seconds to spread enough stuns to allow a target to successfully escape. If there's only one target chasing, then a stun is fine, but if the entire dps force of an enemy team is chasing, then stuns are not enough to allow your target to Peel. Lastly, peeling is typically a stupid thing to do, and it IS ESPECIALLY USELESS SO LONG AS THE HEALER IS STILL BEING INTERRUPTED/PESTERED. You can peel as hard and far as you want, but that player will still die if the healer's cast bar is being interrupted or they're too preoccupied trying not to die themselves. Cover prevents physical dmg on the healer, but it does jack shit for casters. So, why use stun while the target is being covered? Because it's the only way to allow your healer to cast freely without being chased around the map. They can't heal someone else if they're spending all their time healing themselves. I really can't comprehend how someone with "miles" of Pld experience doesn't grasp that.

You seem to have low-expectations of a dps, and high-expectations of healers. I have a strong feeling that you are not aware of what the maximum burst potential for a particular DPS is.

Oh, you have me there. I do have extremely low expectations for dps ... but you're completely wrong as to why. I know exactly what a Dps burst is capable of. I also know what a good healer is capable of. I expect neither when I'm queuing in solo-queue Feast, because Feast queues are random. Rank has nothing to do with it either. Some of the best Dps numbers I've seen were by Bronze ranked players, and some of the worst I've seen were in Gold. it's just the luck of the draw. If I expect every Dps player that I see in Feast to be excellent at their burst rotation, I'd be disappointed nine out of ten times. So, I typically take the attitude of "hope for the best; expect the worst," when queuing for Solo-Feast. Unless I recognize the names of the people I'm playing with, I assume everyone is mediocre until they can prove otherwise.

Funny, because I'm 100% positive that my experience with and against PLDs far outweighs yours by MILES.

That really is funny, because you're still spouting a bunch of misinformed nonsense. I'm also assuming that your "miles" of experience are on a different avatar then? Because the character you're posting with doesn't even have a Pld at 60. You can see why that might be grounds for confusion. Regardless, it's hard to take you seriously when you make bizarre comments like this:

You seem to have briefly forgotten that PLD's stun is limited by their GCD. In which case, stunning a Good Healer means an instant Purify if an opposing PLD is nearby with his DPS, thus making that first 4 second stun moot and leaving PLD to wait on their GCD for the follow-up. A monk doing the first (3s) stun baiting a purify allows the PLD to follow up with an immediate stun successfully locking-up for the kill on the healer. Also, Good DPS don't require 7s of a stun to kill a target.

What in the world are you even talking about here?? There is literally NO PURPOSE to having a mnk initiate the stun unless you want to waste time that they could be using building their burst. Even if the healer purifies the first stun of a Pld on the first second, a Pld's GCD at that level is only 2s. The second stun will be off before they can so much as start a cast of cure. You're not waiting on anything, and even if you were, for some bizarre reason, Spirit's Within is a oGCD that can easily cover that time in the push of a button.

That's even assuming that the Healer purifies the stun in the first place, which also assumes that 1) they even have Purify up on CD at the time, and 2) they have the mind to use it. Surprisingly, a lot of them don't. They'll purify a sleep on the spot, but often they just ride the stun out. If they don't, or can't, use purify then they have to rely on their teammates to purify it for them. That happens next to never, so why waste time assuming it will? Even in the worst case scenario, if the healer does purify the first stun, you're not losing any more or less time if that stun was a Pld's or a Mnk's. That said, if they don't purify the stun then you just guaranteed a loss of at least 1s by planning for something that 1) might not happen in the first place, and 2) the Pld does not need help with. The fact that you could even suggest this, instead of just allowing the mnk to focus on their actual job (killing people as fast as possible) is mind numbing.

By that logic, Healer's entire kit must be "designed to facilitate kills" because they allow you to keep your offensive push as well.

It is. The point of any competition is to win, not to drag it out into a draw. Healers keep the team alive to prevent a loss of points, that's true, but if that is literally ALL you are doing, then you will never win the match. Again, if you don't comprehend this simple fact, then I can't help you.

Clemency.

I'm not even gonna bother with this one. The idea of using a 2 second cast with a non-scaled potency during a Dps push in a party composition where you already have a healer is so asinine that I don't think it needs to be addressed. Clemency is a last ditch heal only, reserved for when there is no other choice. Using it in any other capacity is a waste of time and Mp.

Again, the experience I have with said job goes leaps-and-bounds.

At this point you've said more than enough to all but prove the exact opposite. Your limited and dramatically misinformed opinions about how Pld's utility should be handled has said it all. I stick by my first assessment.

If there's one thing I can agree with you on, it's that this discussion is pointless, because you're beyond reason. I've laid out the facts for you. Take what you want from them, or (more likely) take nothing at all. Feel free to rage away at my loss of patience and lack of tact as well. I don't care at this point. It literally hurts my brain to read some of this nonsense, so I'm just going to ignore anything further you have to say on the subject and assume that it's just as empty and baseless as the rest of it. Good luck to you in the next season of Feast, especially if you're playing as Pld.