Class balance...

[Februs]

I also think that PLDs should have a small nerf, because it isn't fun being a healer and being unable to heal for 10+ seconds, but that's just me.

7 seconds, for the stun. 9 if they get a silence and knock back as well. The only time it could exceed that is if they have a Shield Swipe Proc'd (which is rare, due to the fact that casters don't proc blocks).

That aside, I would agree with you if Pld's weren't already MASSIVELY nerfed by their own dps. As it is, that job is far too gimpy by it's very nature for SE to apply any nerfs to it in any content. I get that Pld's are annoying to play against, but pretty much the only thing that Pld's have going for them right now is their fluid stun lock rotation. If you took that away, there'd almost be no point to playing the job. War would be the only viable tank in PvP.

[NessaWyvern]

7 seconds, for the stun. 9 if they get a silence and knock back as well. The only time it could exceed that is if they have a Shield Swipe Proc'd (which is rare, due to the fact that casters don't proc blocks).

That aside, I would agree with you if Pld's weren't already MASSIVELY nerfed by their own dps. As it is, that job is far too gimpy by it's very nature for SE to apply any nerfs to it in any content. I get that Pld's are annoying to play against, but pretty much the only thing that Pld's have going for them right now is their fluid stun lock rotation. If you took that away, there'd almost be no point to playing the job. War would be the only viable tank in PvP.

Combined with Whm/blm, you can be locked down for so long ;-; I kept being matched with PLD+WHM/PLD+BLM/PLD+WHM+BLM over and over. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep. Stun. Stun. Stun. Silence. Knockback "Healer, heal!" ;-;

[Februs]

Combined with Whm/blm, you can be locked down for so long ;-; I kept being matched with PLD+WHM/PLD+BLM/PLD+WHM+BLM over and over. Sleep. Sleep. Sleep. Stun. Stun. Stun. Silence. Knockback "Healer, heal!" ;-;

I feel your pain. I'm not gonna lie, there have been a few times where I've been slotted with a good Blm or Whm and I actually feel bad for the enemy healer. The thing is, that kind of coordination is rare and easy to screw up. If the whm or blm cast sleep before my maximum stun duration is over, then they wasted either their CC or mine (depending on if I caught it or not). Further, that lengthy duration is meant to compensate for Pld's abysmal Dps.

A Pld cannot single burst a target in Feast. Unlike War, Pld has next to no burst potential. Unless the healer is asleep (and I mean the actual player, not their avi), any dmg a Pld can do is easily heal-able. So the only real threat that they pose on the battle field is in how much time they can buy the dps. Pld is designed for setting up the team with opportunities. Their stun rotation is, by far, the best tool they have for doing that. If you take away the Pld's ability to provide those opportunities, then they're practically dead in the water. Even with their increased party defense (which is also designed to allow the dps to fight harder and longer), the best they could hope to do is to delay the inevitable, because they do not have any other way of facilitating kills (which is the only way to actually win).

[Exira]

7 seconds, for the stun. 9 if they get a silence and knock back as well. The only time it could exceed that is if they have a Shield Swipe Proc'd (which is rare, due to the fact that casters don't proc blocks).

That aside, I would agree with you if Pld's weren't already MASSIVELY nerfed by their own dps. As it is, that job is far too gimpy by it's very nature for SE to apply any nerfs to it in any content. I get that Pld's are annoying to play against, but pretty much the only thing that Pld's have going for them right now is their fluid stun lock rotation. If you took that away, there'd almost be no point to playing the job. War would be the only viable tank in PvP.

You know Pacification doesn't work on healers or casters, right? Unless you are talking about physical jobs.

Also, PLD has far more than just Stun locking going for it.

[Februs]

You know Pacification doesn't work on healers or casters, right? Unless you are talking about physical jobs.

Also, PLD has far more than just Stun locking going for it.

I am well aware. I was referring to the odd time you have to shut down a physical burst. It can come in handy for wasting dps time on buffs like Berserk or Blood for Blood, etc. Though, again, the odds of shield swipe being proc'd is quite low, because melee Dps typically don't attack the tank and magic can't proc a block.

And yes, Pld has a lot going for it, but the VAST majority of it's utility is in it's ability to exercise crowd control. That crowd control comes at the cost of a huge dip in dps. They do have better party defense, that's true, but Testudo, DV, and Cover are all on obnoxiously long CD timers. They can only be stretched so far, and they can be wasted if used at the wrong moments. They are also highly dependent on team coordination. By comparison, War's are far more self-sufficient and have consistently high Dps. They're far easier to use and are almost always an asset, regardless of the situation. There's a reason for why the vast majority of tanks in Feast play as War and not Pld.

[Exira]

snip

PLD is not there for their DPS. You are correct that crowd controlling and defending their party is their job. In which case they do exceptionally well. On top of testudo/dv/stun lock/cover PLD also has Clemency/Flash. PLD can answer every burst, WAR's burst being by far the easiest to disrupt. Healers have their own cds as well for burst that line up pretty well with PLDs, considering DPS have to wait on cds too to burst. Timing the usage of utility as PLD is it what differientes the good ones from the bad ones. WAR is a lot easier to use mostly because they don't have the responsibilties of a PLD/DRK. They're a lot of WARs in solo queue because of its potential burst and ease of use. However, a good PLD can negate/peel WAR burst every time. In team queue (what honestly actually matters) PLD is preferred. PLD and WAR are fine, WAR is not better than PLD.

[Februs]

Snip

Firstly, I never once said that War is better than Pld, nor that War (or Pld) require adjustments (I am actually arguing for the opposite). All I said was that War was more self-sufficient, had consistently higher dps, was easier to use, and is universally an asset; whereas, Pld requires good party coordination to function properly ... All of which you've basically said in your own post, so I guess you agree with me ...

Secondly, you have a few things wrong. Pld cannot answer every burst. That's flat out false, least of all when facing a Wars who can throw out Fell Cleaves roughly every 10 seconds (depending on personal Skill Speed). They can also use double Fell Cleaves every 60 seconds and triple Fell Cleaves roughly every 120 seconds. That's, potentially, 15 Fell Cleaves within their full burst period. Pld's, conversely, can rock a single Cover and DV every 120 seconds (for a duration of 12s or less, in the case of DV), and a Testudo every 150 seconds (20s duration). Even if they timed the perfectly, by some miracle, that defense can still be compromised by poor healing. Clemency can be used as a supplement, but it can only be used 3 times consecutively and takes a full 2 seconds to cast (during which time the burst may very well be over, since it is next to impossible to anticipate in advance unless you've got a stopwatch going). I'm not saying that they can't stretch that mitigation pretty far. They can, but there is no way in hell they can cover every burst that a War gets off, let alone an entire team's worth of bursts. After all, War is only ONE out of THREE potential targets who are bursting at any given time.

Another thing to consider is that every move a Pld uses is a double edged sword. Using it one way costs it's utility somewhere else. Stun locking potentially costs them the use of Cover, as they cannot follow a covered target and maintain their stuns at the same time. Their own dps (and yes, Pld's do, in fact, do at least a little dps) also takes a dive. Clemency is a 100% reduction in both CC and dps, as Pld's can't even move while using it. 100% is a pretty substantial trade off in any circumstances unless the CC timer is on reset. Testudo/DV can be used to save a target's life and cover a burst or LB, but doing that restricts it's usage during an assault, compromising their own teams kill efficiency. I could go into detail on this, but the short and simple of it is a difference between trying to help your team score a kill by giving them time to sustain their assault versus trying to help keep your team alive. There's a time and a place for both usages. Depending on the circumstances, one of those things will help win the match. The other will only delay the inevitable. Given that, to actually win a match, your team has to score kills, it's clear where the priorities should be, unless your team is already ahead in points. That fact alone is what makes Pld so dependent on good healing, because every defensive move they use to cover for a healer's shortcomings is costing their Dps team up-time. There's also a matter of efficiency, as saving the usage of any of those moves means less usages overall during the course of the match. There's only one way Pld's can actively make up that time on their own, and that's by using their stun rotation.

TL;DR: I could go on and on about this in more specific details, but in the end it really falls to party composition and coordination. The bottom line is that Pld's would be utterly crippled if they weren't able to work their stuns as fluidly as they can now; so, no. They absolutely, under no circumstances, should suffer a nerf just because healers find their stun rotation annoying. If SE ever did decide to nerf them, then they would most certainly have to buff Pld in some other area (likely dps) to compensate.

[Exira]

Firstly...

WAR might as well be the only viable tank... I suppose I may have misinterpreted your past post.

Secondly...

A single Fell Cleave is not considered Burst, and double cleave outside of berserk is low level burst. Triple Fell Cleave isn't 3 back to back Fell Cleaves. Infuriate: 60s CD. Stun DR: 60s Blind DR: 60s. Other cds

Use an internal stopwatch and single-target heals base cast time is 2s.

15 Fell Cleaves within their full burst period.

Please go in more depth.

PLD can answer every burst

I suppose I worded this incorrectly. PLD has the means to mitigate/disrupt/unsync/resist/heal/assist/negate/shutdown/re-direct majority opposing burst.

Another...

Their covered target can also follow/be nearby them instead. As a healer, I stay somewhat close to my PLD less they're in the enemy base. I'm also assuming the stun locking is going off on the opposing healer, correct?

PLD's low damage is mainly just support damage, almost negligible unless assisting burst.

Given that, to actually win a match, your team has to score kills

This applies to both teams, so preventing the other team from killing is just as viable. Making unhealable burst, healable is invaluably good.

We both agree that no further changes should be done to PLD/WAR. We just disagree on their strengths and applications, I suppose.

[Februs]

WAR might as well be the only viable tank... I suppose I may have misinterpreted your past post.

Sigh ... You need to go back and read where this conversation started, because I was not originally discussing this topic with you, and you've clearly forgotten the suggestion that I was originally posting against.

When I said that War might as well be the only viable option in this game, I was addressing (and opposing) Nessa's suggestion of nerfing Pld stuns. I stand by that. If you take away Pld's stun potential, then, no matter how good their defensive CDs are, War would be the only viable tank in PvP. Period. As things are now, however, both Pld and War are viable; though, War is easier to use and requires far less party proficiency to use ... Drk's, on the other hand, can just go sit in a corner until SE figures out how to change something meaningful to that job.

A single Fell Cleave is not considered Burst, and double cleave outside of berserk is low level burst. Triple Fell Cleave isn't 3 back to back Fell Cleaves. Infuriate: 60s CD. Stun DR: 60s Blind DR: 60s. Other cds

That's cute, but no.

burst damage is exactly how it sounds: it's a burst in damage. Any increase over the average threshold is a bust, no matter how small. There is not magical damage threshold that needs to be met for it to be considered a burst. It just has to be a sudden increase. If this weren't the case, then certain jobs wouldn't even be considered to have a burst at all (Pld, for example ... and before you ask, yes they do. They just don't use it). Fell Cleave is a sudden increase in dps at a potency of 500 every 12-ish seconds. Considering that a single Fell Cleave can Crit for higher dmg then a full Storm's Eye combo, then yes. It is a burst, a small burst, sure, but it is still a burst.

That burst is also pretty damn fast if done correctly. Firstly, two of those Fell Cleaves are back to back, every time, without exception. Infuriate guarantees that. Secondly, if you know how to use your CD's effectively, then the third Fell Cleave is only delayed by roughly 5 seconds behind or in advance of your double burst. That means that, at best, a Pld can only mitigate ONE out of three Fell Cleaves, even with spot on timing. Most War's prefer to stack their double Fell Cleave at the end of the combo for this exact reason, so to ensure that they kill faster than the dmg can be healed. This isn't exactly a trade secret of the job. There's a couple of different ways to go about it as well, including pre-prepping your first burst with an early burn of Infuriate to reduce the total duration.

Please go in more depth.

It took me a minute to figure out what you were confused about, but I think you're misunderstanding what I was getting at based on my wording. So, that's my mistake. It would probably make more sense to you if I said you get 15 Fell Cleaves in the cool down period, while you're waiting for the 120s cooldown to come back around. Even then, I might be being a bit too generous considering the average War Skill Speed is typically slower than Pld.

Regardless, finishing a full burst (triple Fell Cleave), a war can continue building stacks using regular combos. Sticking with they overly slow 2.5 second GCD, War's would build 5 stacks in about 16 seconds (that's overkill, but whatever). It takes 60s for Infuriate to come back around on CD. During that time, they can output ~4 Fell Cleaves. Then they get a double Fell Cleave which puts them plus 1. Berserk is only on a 30s CD, so a good War can typically push this to +2 Fell Cleaves in this time, where the final 2 are buffed. That's 5-6 Fell Cleaves within one Infuriate CD timer. It takes another 60 second for both Infuriate and Raw Intuition (Berserk will also prep halfway through). Without any bonus stacks in that time, you're looking at another ~4 Fell Cleaves, where the fourth is leading into another double. At the slowest possible skill speed for a Tank at lvl 60, that's a minimum of 12 Fell Cleaves during the full CD timer of War's longest wrath/abandon granting cooldown.

Sorry about that, though. Looking back at it, I can see why my wording would have made that very misleading. It probably sounded as though I was saying they'd get 15 Fell Cleaves within their actual burst window, which is only about 20s long. Not what I intended.

Their covered target can also follow/be nearby them instead. As a healer, I stay somewhat close to my PLD less they're in the enemy base. I'm also assuming the stun locking is going off on the opposing healer, correct?

Not always, no. Majority of the time, a Pld will only use their full stun rotation on a healer, because it maximizes the Dps uptime. However, it can be used to completely nullify a dps burst window or prevent a target from fleeing in the event they are being pressured. To use their stuns to their maximum effect, Plds have to remain as mobile as possible.

I have to admit, it makes me warm and fuzzy inside when I see a healer like yourself stand close to me when I've executed Cover. In a perfect world, all players (dps included) would act in a similar fashion ... Unfortunately (and I think you can see where I'm gonna go with this) it's not a perfect world. Most teammates run around like mindless chickens when under Cover, often going straight to the healer, as if proximity somehow effects heal potency ... I have spent a lot of time chasing my teammates around the map (healers included) trying to save them from their own stupidity.

Further, Pld's dps may be for support, but it's still has value. The amount they provide is tiny compared to dps, but that tiny increase can make or break a kill. Not having it makes a surprising difference to the end game results, especially if the dps are lacking just a little bit. You should also keep in mind that a Pld's personal Dps, interruptions and damage intake contributes to their Adrenaline Bar. Meaning they can actively restrict their party defense by disengaging from the enemy.

This applies to both teams, so preventing the other team from killing is just as viable. Making unhealable burst, healable is invaluably good.

We definitely disagree here.

The only time playing defensively is the viable choice over playing offensively is if you're already ahead in points. If both teams have an equal score, then the most a Pld can do by playing defensively is put off the inevitable loss, or, maybe, push the match to a draw. The reason for this is that, regardless of how good Pld's defensive CD's are, no Pld can keep up the party defense for the entire match. The long CD timers ensure that there are always gaps. Playing defense might make killing your team harder, but, eventually, the enemy will exploit one of those gaps and score a kill, especially if the healer isn't on the ball or simply starts to drain mp.

I don't know about you, but I want to win my matches. Winning requires killing. Pld's entire kit is designed to facilitate those kills. It can be used for pure defense, but using it defensively is a waste unless you are already in the lead. Once you're in the lead, however, you can feel free to fall back and wait it out ... though that's still a gamble, as more limit breaks become available the longer the match goes on, and Pld's cannot possibly cover all of them.