Powerleveling Revisited

[Lavani]

Are you fucking kidding me? Like, really. is this a fucking joke post?

This is a loud and beaming example of why this is unacceptable: Why do people like this get catered to religiously when the supposedly non-existent minority that conflicts with them would pay more money out of their own pocket for a certain experience than this guy's mother can afford for him?

Christ.

Because 100 people paying 12 dollars > 10 people paying 20

[Mirh]

I think anyone "life-dependent" on it is more just afraid of having to wait for other people to find new ways to level quickly (since those people don't strike me as the innovative type) if powerleveling gets patched again. Really, they're just as bad as the people who are deathly allergic to even the thought of powerleveling, just in an "equal but opposite" way.

I don't recall anyone who has said powerleveling should absolutely, positively, not exist. The idea is that one group wants powerleveling and couldn't care possibly less if the content exists and the rest of the community is happy, and the other group wants multiple ways to be viable at honestly no cost to anyone.

Considering how many people are happily powerleveling, I think the concern is when you're running into problems avoiding it.

As far as being lonely at the top goes, I can't imagine a more wonderful opportunity to make friends in the game to play with later than to help those lower level players find those new ways to level. It's not always about reaching the cap. The concept of being a veteran in an MMO seems lost these days.

Because 100 people paying 12 dollars > 10 people paying 20

Once the game starts costing money I think the amount of people wanting a mediocre experience in content will drop. I REALLY hate to say it, but it's obvious most people who have played FFXIV during this time were here for the graphics and free play, not out of loyalty or interest. There are lots of fun MMOs out there, and if you're playing an MMO for a story/content, you don't skip it. It's just not logical.

I'm not going to argue with your point - it is valid - but you have to understand how incredibly stubborn and devoted the secondary group is. The former group may bring in the cash, but the latter is where you will be gauranteed to keep recieving that cash. The trick isn't to absolutely, under any circumstance, please the first group only, but to trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up (Through patches that promise a better game - like how WoW does, and any of us who like WoW know how potent this is) while the more reliable, stubborn group plants down and stays under even the most harsh of circumstances - that is, once you prove, as a company, you care about us, too.

Of course I don't agree to those tactics, I'd rather us all be happy. Just don't forget, the finicky, attention-deficit players are much easier to manipulate and will always ebb and flow in and out of a game's community. S-E will never make this game better than FFXI, so they only have to please so many people. "So many people" stuck through with FFXI for years before WOTG and Abyssea, and FFXI will be seen as a successful MMO in the books of gaming history when it finally, fully, ends.

Hmm, which would explain why Yoshida mainly focuses on appealing to the non-loyal-FFXI potentials. How interesting.

[Teia]

Considering how many people are happily powerleveling, I think the concern is when you're running into problems avoiding it.

Pretty much what I was getting at was the subject of people who stick to one ideal to the point where they run into problems because of it regardless of what that ideal is. My post was largely just equating people who feel they're being pressured to quit because they don't want to be in a PL party (the OP said they felt "strongly influenced to leave [the] game") to players who feel pretty much the opposite way, i.e. players who would feel strongly influenced to leave if it were patched again (not necessarily removed, mind you, but significantly affected) as a way of making the point that inflexibility in general is a bad thing.

Aside from that, I fully agree that helping lower-level and/or less experienced players try new things and learn the game beyond an explanationless "go here and kill this" (such as what things to look for when considering where to go and what to kill, to use a simple example) is a good networking opportunity that too many people view as unimportant. At the very least, it's the "give someone a fish vs teach them to fish" situation.

[Issac]

Pretty much what I was getting at was the subject of people who stick to one ideal to the point where they run into problems because of it regardless of what that ideal is. My post was largely just equating people who feel they're being pressured to quit because they don't want to be in a PL party (the OP said they felt "strongly influenced to leave [the] game") to players who feel pretty much the opposite way, i.e. players who would feel strongly influenced to leave if it were patched again (not necessarily removed, mind you, but significantly affected) as a way of making the point that inflexibility in general is a bad thing.

I understand that you're taking a neutral stance, but if it's considered inflexible to want to work for my level up... Well, if it were true, I will have lost faith in the MMO player community.

[Teia]

I understand that you're taking a neutral stance, but if it's considered inflexible to want to work for my level up... Well, if it were true, I will have lost faith in the MMO player community.

In the end, that comes down to the type of game you want to play. There are games where reaching the level cap is a Herculean feat, and a single level in the upper parts of the curve take days or even weeks. On the other side of it, there are games where reaching the level cap is more or less trivial. If FF14 decides to go the latter route, then that's fine, and I can even understand why someone who liked the slower pace would feel angry or betrayed or some other kind of negativity at Yoshi's new direction, but I have to wonder if we wouldn't be seeing exactly this same kind of thread, just in the opposite direction, if Yoshi went the other way. Ultimately the game's in a kind of transitional period where we don't know what the final product will be, so I think putting as much heavy emphasis on a single aspect of the game as some people seem to be doing is erring on the inflexible side considering there are a lot of adjustments that still need to be made—there's no sense complaining until we know what the final product will be.

tl;dr I'm one of those "you can't please everyone and shouldn't try" people.

[Issac]

In the end, that comes down to the type of game you want to play. There are games where reaching the level cap is a Herculean feat, and a single level in the upper parts of the curve take days or even weeks. On the other side of it, there are games where reaching the level cap is more or less trivial. If FF14 decides to go the latter route, then that's fine, and I can even understand why someone who liked the slower pace would feel angry or betrayed or some other kind of negativity at Yoshi's new direction, but I have to wonder if we wouldn't be seeing exactly this same kind of thread, just in the opposite direction, if Yoshi went the other way. Ultimately the game's in a kind of transitional period where we don't know what the final product will be, so I think putting as much heavy emphasis on a single aspect of the game as some people seem to be doing is erring on the inflexible side considering there are a lot of adjustments that still need to be made—there's no sense complaining until we know what the final product will be.

tl;dr I'm one of those "you can't please everyone and shouldn't try" people.

This point would be valid if the devs weren't listening to player feedback. Unlike FFXI, XIV is partially malleable by the player community.

If this trend continues, and if the general majority wants it to stay, then I might just have to leave. Each day it gets worse, unfortunately.

I remember when I started the first powerlevel thread, and all these herps on the forums were treating me like I pissed and moaned about everything I don't like, ever. To tell the truth, my post count was 25 before 1.19. All my other posts before then were in defense of the game. I love everything about it, even since launch.

EXP has evolved rather sporadically.
Random gains -> Static gains -> Focus on leves -> Ridiculous PLVL -> Slightly less ridiculous PLVL

I didn't mind the random gains, but it was bitched out of the game before anyone put forth any effort into mastering it. I won't argue that it was frustrating and tedious, but whatever.

The static gains were alright, but I will agree that it felt like a generic mindless grind. But to be honest, that's only because there weren't enough goals to achieve. The only motivations to get that level up was some new gear (Just barely, considering that optimal level BS) and hitting cap. The only real motive that stood out was reaching cap, thus all the bitching about it.

Things got a bit faster once the focus turned to leve-linking. Soon there were a handful of leves that players would do over and over. That got old quick, and people started complaining about that being repetitive.

Considering that content takes time to make, I understand why SE imp'd a quick fix like powerlevling. However, the means in which they implemented it and how effective it is... I am vehemently against it. It enables lazy habits. The kind of player it breeds isn't only about skill and ability to play their class. It also breeds unwarranted elitism. The only thing worse than hardcore elitism is casual elitism. Granted, they're both bad, but the latter annoys me more than the prior.

Again, my opinions might be offensive. And I am sorry if they are. I'm not hardcore nor casual, I'm in the middle. I play the game to progress and enjoy the journey in-between. I don't want to take turns being the level 50 to kill everything for the mostly-afk group playing dark souls or somesuch between turns. Not saying that's how everyone does it, just an example.

After all is said and done I have one sincere hope. Sometime next year after they have implemented more progression content, such as goals to strive for, that they will remove this extreme form of enabling powerleveling. I really, really hope all this is a short-term bandaid.

[AmyRae]

Considering that content takes time to make, I understand why SE imp'd a quick fix like powerlevling. However, the means in which they implemented it and how effective it is... I am vehemently against it. It enables lazy habits. The kind of player it breeds isn't only about skill and ability to play their class. It also breeds unwarranted elitism. The only thing worse than hardcore elitism is casual elitism. Granted, they're both bad, but the latter annoys me more than the prior.

How MMOs traditionally keep you involved for long periods of time performing otherwise dull, repetitive, and tedious tasks is by programming the player.

That grind you were so fond of is the classic way you were programmed to be addicted. It honestly had nothing to do with skill, or even "content", but a stimulation of the reward centers of your brain.

Going from level 1 to level 2 is quick and easy. You don't have many skills to use and mobs practically impale themselves when you attack them. Then level 2 hits and you learn a new ability. Using this new ability makes the job of killing easier, but the mobs you started off attacking at level 1 are less rewarding. Also, the road to level 3 is much longer, requiring more XP. So you go off to fight harder foes to improve the rewards and reach level 3 faster.

Once you do you get that satisfying Level Up, you get more slot points, more points in your attributes so you can kill even faster. But your current foes are now less rewarding, and the journey to level 4 is even longer. But! At level 4 you can learn a new ability and get even stronger, and so you press on with harder foes. As you level, you collect drops which you can trade for money, which in turn, you can exchange for gear, which makes you stronger, and allows you to earn rewards faster.

And it's by this process of making the combat experience increasingly more complicated and rewards gradually more infrequent that you're being conditioned. It's also reinforced by how the game tracks your achievements. Your character has a page on the Lodestone that gives you these trophies every time you reach a new Aetheryte crystal, reach a leveling milestone, complete a challenging quest, or kill an exponential amount of mobs. You can also use your character data to create a fancy signature image so you can give your friends an idea of how much you've accomplished in the game. Lots of classes sitting at 50 makes you feel respected, important, like a real player.

Powerleveling does circumvent this conditioning somewhat since it creates a shortcut around the process. So while you feel this may create players who are less skillful (somewhat incorrect given that there is some skill involved in setting up an efficient powerleveling operation), what you're actually dealing with are players who are less addicted because they haven't gone through the same process to endgame that you did (and therefore don't love the game as much as you do). Because they can easily obtain signatures filled with high level classes, your similar achievement seems less important. The reinforcement of your achievement is thus shattered, and your addiction to the game is not as strong.

However, the greatest force of addiction is not really in scheduled rewards, such as the leveling system, in the first place.

The greatest addiction occurs when the rewards are random.

The Ifrit fight is actually an example of the most addictive part of FFXIV. You know that if you fight Ifrit long enough, you'll eventually get that highly valuable item you're hoping for. But you don't know if it will take 1 attempt or 100. Not only that, but you also know that not fighting him guarantees you won't get the item (can't be obtained through trade or alternative methods). The same goes for creating materia. After a lengthy process of filling the Spiritbond gauge for materia creation, you actually don't know if you'll get the highly desired form you're hoping for (this time). And let's not get started on the process of doubling them up when inserting them into gear...

It's the perfect conditions to keep you playing over and over, flailing at the chance to stimulate the reward center of your brain, knowing that if you do nothing you won't succeed, but that next time, maybe next time, you'll get that which you truly (were conditioned to) desire.

[Lavani]

Once the game starts costing money I think the amount of people wanting a mediocre experience in content will drop. I REALLY hate to say it, but it's obvious most people who have played FFXIV during this time were here for the graphics and free play, not out of loyalty or interest. There are lots of fun MMOs out there, and if you're playing an MMO for a story/content, you don't skip it. It's just not logical.

Yes I agree that you don't "skip" a story if that's what you're after. When I was leveling my first 50, I did it entirely in "legit" groups. I had zero PL parties and I still "skiped" the content. At 50 I was able to do all of the story quests and switch to lower level classes, (that got powerleveld at times) and turn those in for the exp rewards. Regardless of having the option to powerlevel or not people can still enjoy content and story. It's illogical to remove a game style or leveling process because someone else doesn't agree with it.

I'm not going to argue with your point - it is valid - but you have to understand how incredibly stubborn and devoted the secondary group is. The former group may bring in the cash, but the latter is where you will be gauranteed to keep recieving that cash. The trick isn't to absolutely, under any circumstance, please the first group only, but to trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up (Through patches that promise a better game - like how WoW does, and any of us who like WoW know how potent this is) while the more reliable, stubborn group plants down and stays under even the most harsh of circumstances - that is, once you prove, as a company, you care about us, too.

Hmm, which would explain why Yoshida mainly focuses on appealing to the non-loyal-FFXI potentials. How interesting.

Since you brought the subject of WoW. Yes Blizzard seems to be catering to less "hardcore" players recently. It is extremely easy to level to cap, run a few dungeons and get full epic gear. That is one of the reasons they lost so many people during WotLK and Cataclysm. Why would they continue to do this if they are losing people? Because the people that enjoy the quicker access to content (via fast leveling) and perhaps even the ease of access to epic gear (although not top tier) outweigh "the incredibly stubborn and devoted secondary group."

Both Blizzard and SE are major companies in a very competitive industry. They are going to make decisions based on profit margins a lot. Also SE is trying to erase the taint that the original ffxiv launch brought the company, and probably the best way to do so is to make the game succeed by doing similar things that wow did (in terms of time spent leveling vs time spent on end game content) to gain a larger number of subscribers. The largest part of MMOs is the endgame content, that's why new patches add END GAME CONTENT.

More people playing tells reviewers that the game is more successful and if they enjoy the game as well the game will receive even better reviews and bring in even more people to play and pay. They probably also see this "incredibly stubborn and devoted secondary group" and know they will stick with the game through "the good and bad". You said "trick you guys into throwing money at the game to keep funds up" well guess what, that's easier done to the "loyal" people who have been here for forever and a day because they want the game to "succeed". The game will succeed when more people are playing the game, not just the devoted few.

[Mirh]

Yes I agree that you don't "skip" a story if that's what you're after.(...) The game will succeed when more people are playing the game, not just the devoted few.

I've exhausted a lot of energy over the last few days on posts so I'm kind of in a mellow enough state to not do my normal, so you'll have to forgive me for a lack of worthy response:

You make several good points here, although I weigh this to be really to some level a glass half full / glass half empty situation. I did forget that a lot of people in WoW left due to how easy the game was, myself included once I progressed enough to see. The issue here is that WoW still boasted an incredibly large player base that was genuinely happy - the core of WoW, being quite happy just having casual fun. Blizzard did not have to worry about losing the hardcore fanbase because it would always have millions of players and intense income. They did this because they are (*blush*) an incredibly good company. (Although of course it brings in a few more $$million.)

SE does have to do whatever it can to keep their ridiculously pricy project of an MMO from sinking due to how catastrophic it all has been to them as a company - it's true. I think it'll all come down to what Yoshida is really about. If the development team really has that "Japanese passion" for FFXIV they did for FFXI, they'll want to bring incredible amounts of life into the world, and even if Yoshida is just wanting to make the game attractive for item hunter types, he won't be able to directly stop that.

Make no mistake though. I'm aware how insignificant anyone who wants a slower/more fulfilling MMO really is these days. If it were the other way around, I doubt you guys wanting a quick experience would lay down and take it.

If we don't really clamor for "something" about this SE won't have any incentive period. If you ever listen to Yoshida or read the interviews he seems surprised every time someone mentions something that isn't directly what he thinks will work because it works in WoW. More or less. And I'm under the impression S-E reads these forums. maybe a 12 page+ thread means something, even if it's full of "NO!" lol

Also, anything tough in WOW was strictly at endgame once Blizzard tweaked things. I'm sorry, that's really not fun. Pllllllease try to remember the leveling experience, while not fun to you, used to be fun for people, and the hours/days/months it takes people used to be considered part of a game, rather than an ancient method that wastes your time.