Support Classes/Jobs (Looking at BRD)

[Wolfie]

I was being slightly sarcastic there; forgive me for that.

Any specific examples of successful primary ranged DPS mechanics?

Every ranged DPS in WOW?

[Claire_Pendragon]

Obviously not, but if you only play whatever you want the community will not be as eager to let you participate.

I more so mean, just me and 4-8 friends. (edit, obviously not 8 friends as that's 9 ppl lol)
My RL friends play with me in MMOs, and I'm usually the only person who plays supports, but personally I'm currently not really interested in playing ARC to take up BRD. (I might change that)
Outside of my friends, I usually play Tank or Healer willingly.

"Do I want to look like a Ninja while I tank or a Paladin?"

Actually, MRD and GLA have different play styles, same with PLD vs NIN in XI.
(Even more so in games like WoW, you would be surprised how drastically different the classes feel. I end up picking which class to play as, based on which play style is more fun, and better suited for my style of "Thinking in a Panic". Plus any issues that arise from my Carpal Tunnel. Aka mashing the mouse button to switch targets too often as WoWs WAR vs PT member targeting as PLD)


edit
Also I kinda agree that Ranged Damage Dealers tend to be 'unfair' (imo) in that, they are supposed to have the safety of being out of AoE range of the boss, yet they deal just as much damage as the melee?

BUT there are ways to balance it, and now that I think of it, lowering dmg, for buffs, that raise others offense, does seem like the reasonable trade off.

But regardless, using WoW as a typical example, Melee (in PvP) have 'anti-CC' to help fight ranged, and some bosses are designed to make melee have an advantage sometimes...

Over all I won't touch too much into this subject.

[MANTASTIC]

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

None of those options are especially appealing to me.

If you go with option 1, content will be too difficult for a group lacking a buffer, excluding portions of the user-base and creating situations where content is underused due to difficulty. That's bad for everyone, because it means that resources will be diverted away from developing all those big raids. Square-enix is running a business, and that means keeping as many people happy, and paying, as possible. If only 2-5% of the playerbase sees (insert raid boss' name here) die, you can bet you'll see less of bosses like that in the future.

With option 2, we have more accessible content for everyone. Raids would be doable in a group lacking a bard, but would be made much easier, or worse: trivial, by groups that do have a buffer. Time and time again, communities in MMO's have gravitated towards the most efficient means of accomplishing tasks. So while a raid CAN be cleared by a group sans buffer, you can bet the vast majority of those who actually do will still take one with them. So we'll eventually arrive at the outcome of content is too easy for the majority of players that do it.

And the final possibility: downplay the bards' buffing capabilities. We would then find ourselves asking "a bard that doesn't buff well does what, exactly?" Given that archer is the base class for bard, presumably it does DPS. So why be a bard in this case? What makes a bard mechanically different than other classes? Even from the archer's standpoint, why should he choose to be a bard over a class that already does damage? Not to say the current class situation is the shining example class diversity, but I don't think this hypothetical situation would do anything towards fixing that.

If I had to pick my poison, I'd probably lean towards option 3, and hope they can come up with fun gameplay that's unique to the bard without impacting balance in other areas.

[Claire_Pendragon]

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

None of those options are especially appealing to me.

If you go with option 1, content will be too difficult for a group lacking a buffer, excluding portions of the user-base and creating situations where content is underused due to difficulty. That's bad for everyone, because it means that resources will be diverted away from developing all those big raids. Square-enix is running a business, and that means keeping as many people happy, and paying, as possible. If only 2-5% of the playerbase sees (insert raid boss' name here) die, you can bet you'll see less of bosses like that in the future.

The best way to imagine this already is;
We get too much exp right now (or so people say)
Add a BRD who lets us chain endlessly even FASTER.
people get to Lv50 in 1 hour. (exaggeration, since we have no idea.)
SE has to nerf BRD into the ground, and be another FFXI DRG, until 5 years later, when they find the magical way around this problem.
If it's properly set up from the start, this avoids allot of problems.
Over all I agree with mantastic, and Favor a COR like class.
EDIT: put a link to his post on front page.

[HoolieWho]

Problems with BRD, or any designated-buffer class, from the game designers' perspective:

I have this class whose function within a group is to make the rest of the group better. Since this exists, I'll have to either 1) balance content around the idea that every group has a buffer to make it challenging, 2) balance content around the idea that every group DOESN'T have a buffer, or 3) make the buffer class have weak buffs so as not to impact balance.

The question is, if you swap your buffer out of the party for X is the group stronger or weaker or neutral? I like specialized roles that make for groups significantly stonger than the sum of their parts. But hopefully at the end of the day the makeup of a strong party reflects the distribution of classes people play.

One problem I ran into with buffs in FFXI was that the buffs themselves can discriminate among classes. Haste was a great buff... for melee. So the ideal parties had melee. Tough luck for rangers and pet classes or black mage. It sucks when a good buff homogenizes what could otherwise be a diverse party of damage dealers because the buff favors some classes over others.

Anyway, GO BARD! But I hope they can be implemented while avoiding some of the pitfalls of FFXI bard.

[Claire_Pendragon]

One problem I ran into with buffs in FFXI was that the buffs themselves can discriminate among classes. Haste was a great buff... for melee.

Very good point.
Something that may,or may not, hurt BRD come 2.0.
If the buffs take too much time, as most currently in the game do, (and worse, the time they took up in XI) this can become rather annoying quickly, spamming different buffs, to buff different classes, leaving you with no time to have fun with the class.
(Again looking at BRD in XI, and just sitting there waiting for something to happen, because songs took so long to cast.)

[HoolieWho]

Melee classes always seem very popular. Multi-player skill combos, like skill chains or battle regimens, are a way to let groups of melee buff each other. We'll have to see what self combos and battle regimens 2.0 look like when they get implemented.

Maybe a dedicated buffer class could work in a battle regimen system by using skills that do little or no damage themselves but are able to stand in for combos from any another class. Like the dancer ability from ffxi.