Haurchefant's Mother

[Airias]

1/2

Not sure how much choice women in Ishgard have regarding birth control, but I can't imagine they'd plan having a child with a man they can't marry because of his position. The NPC women in Ishgard give us a very medieval image of marriage, so having a child out of wedlock is probably a terrible sin.

Likely motives for a woman to bed Thordan could be a misplaced hunger for power, or being attracted by power, if he already was Archbishop or close to becoming it around the time. On the other hand, Thordan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be above rape or whoring and the lack of affection for his son gives us an indication that he wasn't in love with Aymeric's mother.

[LineageRazor]

On the other hand, Thordan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be above rape or whoring and the lack of affection for his son gives us an indication that he wasn't in love with Aymeric's mother.

Wow, the characterization of Thordan in this game didn't give me this impression at all. I believe that it was all but spelled out that the only reason a bastard like Aymeric was able to rise to the position he held was due to Thordan's influence. That hardly indicates a lack of affection! Additionally, Aymeric clearly believed that he might be able to sway Thordan from his path, which wouldn't make much sense if Thordan had been cold to him his entire life. And raping and whoring? Where does that even come from?

The impression I got from Thordan was that he was a man who inherited a very difficult problem (the war with the dragons, and the secret that Ishgard had started the conflict). While from the perspective of many he chose the wrong methods for addressing that problem, it was clear to me that he believed he was doing what was best for Ishgard. Thordan desired power, it is true, but pretty much all the dialog we see indicates that he wants that power in order to secure Ishgard's future, rather than power solely for power's own sake.

From this, my impression of his relationship with his son was that he loved Aymeric, and probably his mother as well, but due to his position had to keep both at a distance, publicly. Very likely he had a warm relationship with them in private, which is why Aymeric was sure he could be turned from his ruinous path - and even though Aymeric was wrong, he was merely imprisoned for opposing him, rather than executed.

[Airias]

1/3

I believe that it was all but spelled out that the only reason a bastard like Aymeric was able to rise to the position he held was due to Thordan's influence.

Now that's interesting. Lucia said pretty clearly the rumors about Aymeric's ancestry made it harder for him because everyone assumed his career was only built on the influence from his father, indicating he didn't have the skills, and he still made it this far, having to prove himself more than others. His belief to be able to sway Thordan wasn't born out of a family bond, but because he thought he'd out the lie either way - Aymeric was ready to fight his father over this if he couldn't persuade him and actively used the blood bond as a reassurance. Lucia did not just expect the rumors were true, she bet his life on them, so Aymeric must've filled her in.

[Airias]

2/3

I've watched that scene where Aymeric leaves us at Fortemps Manor over and over again, wondering why he left without having rescue plans in place: Because he had. He knew how much backup he had and he was ready to push his own father off the throne for the sake of his reform plans. So much about family love.

Thordan desired power, it is true, but pretty much all the dialog we see indicates that he wants that power in order to secure Ishgard's future, rather than power solely for power's own sake.

If you think Thordan truly wanted what's best for Ishgard, you should listen to Alphinaud again: He reminded us of "[...]the importance of differentiating between words, deeds and beliefs. [...] judge your father's conviction to be no more than rank, self-serving delusion." (The Sins of Antiquity) -->

[Airias]

3/3

Thordan did not care how many innocent people died or lost their loved ones or their limbs in the war, he didn't even think of alternatives even though his own son had lots of ideas about that. Ideas Aymeric obviously was too afraid to share with his father until that day, since Thordan believed his son would come to share his views. But then, Thordan shared none of his own plans with the Lord Commander of the Temple Knights, who could have been of great help.

All of that indicates their relationship as father and son is relatively fresh and there is little trust between them, which doesn't come as a surprise since Thordan couldn't care less for other people and Aymeric has no problems sacrificing himself for them.

(Aaah this 1.000-character rule kills me, sorry for the formatting)

[Rosenoire]

The word that comes to my mind regarding Thordan is "entitled". He believed that he knew what was best for Ishgard and the rest of the world, and the opinions and feelings of others were simply irrelevent. He was right, and that was the end of the matter. I could see him assuming that a woman wanted him because why wouldn't she? But mostly, I feel like Thordan evaluates people by whether they're useful to him. Aymeric as Commander of the Temple Knights was potentially useful--until he proved that he wasn't by not getting with the program. If Thordan had any kind of relationship with his son, he'd have known that his rationalization wasn't going to sway Aymeric.

I definitely got the sense that Aymeric's rise was in spite of his parentage rather than because of it; the rumors and scandal would have made his life very difficult as an unacknowledged bastard. And his relationship in private couldn't have been that warm--he didn't just have him imprisoned; his instructions to "question him thoroughly" and the way Aymeric was limping and holding his arm strongly suggest that the Heavens' Ward tortured him on Thordan's command. Not going to win any Father of the Era awards.

[Atoli]

I could see him assuming that a woman wanted him because why wouldn't she?

On the whole "Thordan forcing himself on some woman" theory:
This might sound weird but...Aymeric is one of the most popular male characters in FFXIV. And while a lot of that can be attributed to his interesting role and galant behaviour, let's be honest and say that his good looks also play a huge role in that ^^°
He must have gotten them from SOMEWHERE..and Thordan wasn't always this old dried-up man with a long white beard. If he was attractive and powerful (because before becoming pope, he must already have held a fair amount of power within the clergy), there is no reason all the women wouldn't fall for him.
I mean, how old is Aymeric anyway? He looks like he's in his 30s. So Thordan was what, 30-40 when he fathered Aymeric? I don't find it hart to believe he fancied some woman back then for a while. Or at least just wanted to get rid of some...natural urges

30 years is a long time. He probably wasn't as composed and focused as we know him to be now.

[Atoli]

You can just edit your first post after posting a few words and add as much as you want, no more character limit^^

While the whole raping/whoring part strikes me as odd and unfitting for him (and also never shows up anywhere as a hint about him), I generally share Airias' impression of him.
The way Aymeric talked about and to Thordan never gave off a loving family vibe and I also remember him having to work extra hard that he got to his current position because, while everything was done by himself, the Ishgardians attributed his success to his father instead of himself. Sounds like the exact opposite of neopotism to me.

About Thordan's care for Ishgard: Yes, what he did was done to protect his city. But let's not kid ourselves and think he didn't care about power either. Even if he didn't wanted to share the true history because he feared losing the stability, he never made any effort to improve the lives of his non-noble citizens, whom he knew had the same heritance as the nobles.

Then again, I played the German version so the whole mistress/lowly noble thing about Aymeric's heritage is the story I know, and it might very well be that the untertone of his relationship with his father is warmer and nicer in the English version.

[LineageRazor]

If you think Thordan truly wanted what's best for Ishgard, you should listen to Alphinaud again: He reminded us of "[...]the importance of differentiating between words, deeds and beliefs. [...] judge your father's conviction to be no more than rank, self-serving delusion." (The Sins of Antiquity) -->

This, actually, works towards proving my point than against it. Even if Aphinaud is correct (and even that is subject to debate - Aphinaud is hardly infallible), the key words are "self-serving delusion". Thordan may have been fooling himself about the true reason he wants the power, but that still indicates that he cares about Ishgard and believes that preserving its future is a righteous and just cause.

Thordan did not care how many innocent people died or lost their loved ones or their limbs in the war, he didn't even think of alternatives even though his own son had lots of ideas about that. Ideas Aymeric obviously was too afraid to share with his father until that day, since Thordan believed his son would come to share his views. But then, Thordan shared none of his own plans with the Lord Commander of the Temple Knights, who could have been of great help.

How do you know that he didn't care? Innocent lives may be lost, but to Thordan these are regrettable but necessary sacrifices for the greater good. Thordan gives every impression of bearing a heavy weight upon his shoulders. There is NO scene in the game where he appears happy, or even all that enthusiastic about the things he is doing. He is ruthless and pragmatic - but whether these traits are seen as good or bad in a ruler typically depends on how you personally feel about the results.

Thordan's treatment of the commoners is another example of that ruthless pragmatism: Thordan required the support of the noble houses in order to enact his plans for the preservation of Ishgard. Nobles had more resources to offer him than the commoners, and so maintaining the status quo was in the best interests of Ishgard. And, judging by recent main scenario quests, he may have been right: unless the WoL and his allies pull off a miracle, Ishgard is in for an UGLY revolution, one that will doom both nobles and commoners alike with Nidhogg still a threat. Of course, crushing the peasantry under heel is just going to make that revolution all the uglier, but Thordan is hardly the first despot to make that critical mistake.

Of course, it's possible that he fully knew that he was making the situation worse, but was confident that he'd be able to keep things stable once he had the power of Azys Lla. He may have even had plans to finally bring equality between the nobles, the commoners, and everyone else in the world - all equal, as subjects to his eternal rule.

As for Aymeric's and Thordan's reluctance to share their plans with one another, on BOTH sides, each thought that the other could be swayed to their way of thinking. That indicates an amicable relationship, at the very least. Both of them place enough trust in the other to assume that the other will, in the end, do the right thing. Unfortunately, each has a different perspective on what "the right thing" is, and so both were wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that they valued and trusted one another.

I think that Thordan is WAY more complex a character than a lot of folks give him credit for. The Heavensward storyline was some of the most excellent writing I've seen in a video game, and Thordan's characterization is no exception.

[Airias]

Thank you Atoli! *edited*

Okay before the raping/whoring is blown up any further, let me clarify I only said "I wouldn't put it past him" - I'm not saying Aymeric was conceived against the will of the mother, or even that it is likely, but that Thordan doesn't care if other people suffer from his actions (as Rosenoire pointed out, not even for his son) or is in another self-serving delusion about them.

This might have been different at another time, and yes, there is a certain similarity in the eyes of father and son that indicates Thordan must've been handsome in his younger days, and probably very charismatic if he made it to the position of Archbishop. There sure were a few women that fancied him, and to imagine a lowly noblewoman thought she'd get something better out of an affair with the Archbishop than out of an arranged marriage is not that hard.

So the range of circumstances under which Aymeric could have been conceived is rather large and doesn't give us any better clue about who his mother was or how he was brought up.



On Thordan's motives, I'm sure he is a complex character and his choices were no easy ones, but the choices he made in the end, playing safe and having the majority of his people suffer, as well as having his own son tortured, tells us he was corrupted by his power and had little feelings for Aymeric.

Their tries to persuade the other of their views were not born out or respect or trust, but necessity and a false hope in their blood relation. Aymeric saw what a good father looked like when he spent more time with the Fortemps, hoping his father would think as much of him as Edmont thought of Haurchefant. Thordan thought his flesh and blood would think like him, and was completely deaf to his arguments. If there had been any value for his son, he would have listened and given his son's views a thought, but he simply dismissed them. In their actions, they showed how little they knew each other.

In the end, Aymeric had little problem having his father killed, just as Thordan had had no problem having his son tortured.