What can I do to stop this?

[Brian_]

I go in knowing there is the possibility that I won't get a good run and that there is a 30 minute penalty in the event I should choose to leave.

That is the full description of the system. And, despite knowing the current state of DF, SE has recently said that they feel the penalty is appropriate and have no plans to change it. What many other people here are doing is applying a layer of white knighting and social-justice-pursuits based on personal biases onto the existing system. Given who they are and their other posting tendencies, I can't say I'm surprised.

Unlike these over righteous people I don't presume to tell someone how to play this game. There are times I've queued as a healer or DPS and had a tank leave. If it's not a run that's likely to get a replacement, I leave and re-queue. At worst it's a 15 minute wait for a leveling roulette queue as a DPS. Big deal.

But really, if this is the stance people want to have, then okay. I assume that any time you encounter anyone that isn't playing this game the "right" way, you also pick up your keyboard and club them with it. I assume you will spend 60 minutes anytime you queue into a Ramuh EX through mentor roulette trying to teach people how to pass a DPS check or handle priority mechanics. I assume that any time you encounter a DPS not playing their class optimally or a healer not DPSing, you make it your mission to fix them. I assume that anytime you see someone without materia melded in your gear you take a dump on them.

In the meanwhile, I'll just live and let live and let people enjoy the game how they want to even if sometimes it comes at a slight inconvenience to myself.

[winsock]

I go in knowing there is the possibility that I won't get a good run and that there is a 30 minute penalty in the event I should choose to leave.

That is the full description of the system. And, despite knowing the current state of DF, SE has recently said that they feel the penalty is appropriate and have no plans to change it. What many other people here are doing is applying a layer of white knighting and social-justice-pursuits based on personal biases onto the existing system. Given who their other posting tendencies, I can't say I'm surprised.

We aren't saying you can't, we're just attempting to help you see past any delusions you may have. From a social standpoint, it isnt desirable behavior and is considered selfish, while the OP's behavior is considered acceptable.

Unlike these over righteous people I don't presume to tell someone how to play this game.
....
In the meanwhile, I'll just live and let live and let people enjoy the game how they want to even if sometimes it comes at a slight inconvenience to myself.

^ this is what ppl have a problem with. You certainly are NOT displaying "live and let live" behaviors and you shouldn't kid yourself. You may not be "telling" ppl how to play the game, but you are "forcing" them to play the way you want them to i.e. without a tank, waiting for a tank, or re-queuing altogether. You're negatively impacting the party for personal gain. That is not "Live and Let live"

[Brian_]

^ this is what ppl have a problem with. You certainly are NOT displaying "live and let live" behaviors and you shouldn't kid yourself. You may not be "telling" ppl how to play the game, but you are "forcing" them to play the way you want them to i.e. without a tank, waiting for a tank, or re-queuing altogether. You're negatively impacting the party for personal gain. That is not "Live and Let live"

No, it's you who doesn't understand what that means. What it means is that I'll live my life, and you live yours. I can make my own judgements about when I want to leave a group and when you make that same judgement about leaving a group, I won't hold it against you. I'm free to do what I want and so are you. You quite literally do not know what that statement means.

What's happening here is the opposite of that mentality. It's a bunch of judgemental, vindictive, self-righteous pettiness and people telling others that if they don't do exactly what they want, they're wrong. It's a bunch of people applying their own subjective standards to what is acceptable behavior, what is selfish play, and what is okay according to their morals.

When I queue into a group and a DPS is doing 200 DPS and watching net flix on the side, my mentality is "you do what you will but don't fault me when I drop group." Your mentality suggests that I am obligated to carry the run. And, before you suggest that's a different situation, it's only different because you deem it so. These are all forms of selfishness. You are picking and choosing what to support and punish. I'm saying that you just let it be and allow things to resolve themselves through the exercising of individual rights -- rights that you are trying to take away from people.

[Jpec07]

Basically agreeing with most sentiments expressed here; when you queue for a roulette, you accept that you may be put into ANY of the content that roulette contains. If you don't like that, don't queue for the roulette. It's as simple as that. If you leave because you don't like what you got...



EDIT: As has been pointed out, it is somewhat hipocritical to impose my morality on other players. While the ideal behavior is definitely to queue with expectation that you could get a crappy run in a crappy instance, and to finish anyway, do whatever you want. Just know that there are a lot of people in the community, myself included, who find that sort of behavior deplorable.

[Zolvolt]

I think, the scope of what we're talking about is out of hand. The content in question are levle 50 and 60 4 player dungeons that roughly take somewhere between 15-40 minutes to clear.

The mentor queue system seems to be designed for people that are willing to put in extra effort to coach people through generally difficult content. So I don't really see why you'd complain about signing up for something like that and then getting ramuh extreme.

As for me being, selfish, there must be a disconnect between what people see as acceptable vs. unacceptable behavior. What would be unacceptable behavior to me, would be afk'ing. Refusing to heal players out of spite, ignoring mechanics, being a hateful person and wasting the limit break. If this is not the case then please correct my way of thinking.

[Februs]

I think, the scope of what we're talking about is out of hand. The content in question are levle 50 and 60 4 player dungeons that roughly take somewhere between 15-40 minutes to clear.

This could also be a reason right here.

I hate to say this, but since they included the Aetherochemical Research Facility into the level 60 roulette, I've flat out stopped queuing for that roul. The only reason I go is if an FC mate or a friend asks me. I stopped for two reasons. The first is that I got that damn dungeon every damn day for two week straight. That's enough, as far as I'm concerned. The second reason is because I can typically clear two Ex roulette runs in the time it takes me to clear that one dungeon, especially if I'm bringing Dps that I know. It's not that I hate the dungeon. I actually like the aesthetic. It's just that it takes too long to be worth my time. Get a new person in the group who wants to watch the cutscenes, and I might as well cut out anything else I might have planned to do in the next hour. I can make up those tomes other ways, faster and easier.

As for the level 50 content, the only thing I can think of is personal grudges against certain content. SE is really the one to blame for this, because some of their past grinds were merciless and unfair, especially for the original Zeta quest. Some dungeons got a bad reputation as a result. For example, I myself will never, EVER, run Dzemael Darkhold again. I did over 70 runs for my original Zeta, and I now hate that that sh** hole with a passion. Hullbreaker Isle is another that makes my stomach churn, because I did over 50 runs of that place. Is it a bad dungeon? No, not particularly. I won't leave it if I get it for my 50 roul, but I am most certainly not a fan of it, and I'll never queue for it directly if I can avoid it.

Those are about the only reasons I can think of to avoid certain dungeons.

[Februs]

As for me being, selfish, there must be a disconnect between what people see as acceptable vs. unacceptable behavior. What would be unacceptable behavior to me, would be afk'ing. Refusing to heal players out of spite, ignoring mechanics, being a hateful person and wasting the limit break. If this is not the case then please correct my way of thinking.

As a side note, you should be aware that Tanks often have a different perspective on this issue by the nature of our job and the kinds of criticism we get while doing it. The reason for this (and I know this is going to sound conceited), is that Tanks are often doing the most work in the party. Think of it from a Tank's perspective:

Dps are just Dps. Even if they're working their maximum possible rotation (which is on average more complicated than a Tank's), they're not really doing anything except killing the target in front of them. They have 1 job, and only 1 job.

Healers have it a little harder, because they have to keep everyone alive, but that's not all that complicated either. If the Tank is doing their job correctly, then they're only healing one person and the occasional party-wide AoE (which is typically healed automatically by HoT's). Even your own example of using one or two cure's a mob while eating dinner shows just how simple it can be. You should also be aware that most Pld's have leveled at least a Whm, so they are fully aware of when a Healer is doing only the bare minimum of what they can do.

Tanks, on the other hand, have to be aware of pull sizes and enemy placements. They have to manage enmity, which includes watching the enmity of their teammates so they don't lose hate. On top of that, they have to keep up a solid defense so to reduce the strain on the healer, and on top of that, we're also expected to maximize our Dps output to speed things along (both for time as well as mitigation purposes) ... And that's assuming everything is going smoothly. See the difference?

Now, realistically, we could make our jobs just as simple as Dps or Healing by spamming Flash/Overpower/Unleash the entire dungeon and doing next to nothing else, but what kind of response do you think we'd get from the Dps and Healer? I can tell you right now that we'd be considered lazy and get criticized for not doing our jobs properly. The healer would hate us for not reducing enough damage, and the Dps would hate us for just being plain slow.

Now, again, I know this comes across as very conceited (because it is), but I'm just mentioning it because this is the double standard that Tanks are held under while running in DF. This obviously varies from group to group and with personal skill level, but, typically, Tanks are expected to uphold a certain standard of play, and we are the first people who get fingered in a crowd when things go wrong. Yet, at the same time, the vast majority of Dps and Healers we see in DF slide by with doing only the bare minimum of what their job asks of them. So, you can see why some tanks (right or wrong) can cultivate the attitude that a healer who simply sits back and does nothing but heal is being lazy or selfish. It's not something that I personally think a healer should be shafted for, but it should give you an idea of where that attitude comes from.

[winsock]

No, it's you who doesn't understand what that means. What it means is that I'll live my life, and you live yours. I can make my own judgements about when I want to leave a group and when you make that same judgement about leaving a group, I won't hold it against you. I'm free to do what I want and so are you. You quite literally do not know what that statement means.

Lol, "live and let live" is about tolerance and implies no harm is done between the parties involved. For example, you could not adopt a "murderer" lifestyle and expect people to be tolerant. In other words, it isn't "live and let live" if you "live to end life"

If the way you want to live actively and negatively impacts others, it isn't "live and let live".

Are you genuinely wanting ppl to tolerate you walking on them?

[Brian_]

Lol, "live and let live" is about tolerance and implies no harm is done between the parties involved. For example, you could not adopt a "murderer" lifestyle and expect people to be tolerant. In other words, it isn't "live and let live" if you "live to end life"

If the way you want to live actively and negatively impacts others, it isn't "live and let live".

Are you genuinely wanting ppl to tolerate you walking on them?

No, what I am saying is quite clear. What you are saying is that we should all be vigilantes and impose individual "justice" in place of actual laws.

Using your example, I am saying that if a murder is committed, the murderer still has their rights to a fair trial, fair punishment, and fair treatment under the law. I don't get to personally decide what the proper punishment is due to my own pettiness and vindictiveness.

So, if you want to leave a roulette, go ahead. We all play by the same rules and the system will punish you according to the rules. It's not my job to punish or judge you according to what I view as appropriate or inappropriate behavior.

[Jpec07]

I go in knowing there is the possibility that I won't get a good run and that there is a 30 minute penalty in addition to screwing over everyone else in the instance in the event I should choose to leave.

Fixed that for you.

That is the full description of the system. And, despite knowing the current state of DF, SE has recently said that they feel the penalty is appropriate and have no plans to change it. What many other people here are doing is applying a layer of white knighting and social-justice-pursuits based on personal biases onto the existing system. Given who they are and their other posting tendencies, I can't say I'm surprised.

Do you always deflect this way when you're called on your egocentric views and actions? Calling people "white knights" who are making legitimate counterpoints does nothing to address the point itself, and is an ad hominem fallacy. Point being, you can't effectively counter an argument by calling the people who are making that argument "white knights" or "social justice bozos" (to be polite).

Now, you're suggesting that the system ought to define behavior, and the community shouldn't police itself some; am I getting that right? It's hard to read what you're actually saying when you layer it behind angst that people are telling you that you're contributing to the problem.

Unlike these over righteous people I don't presume to tell someone how to play this game. There are times I've queued as a healer or DPS and had a tank leave. If it's not a run that's likely to get a replacement, I leave and re-queue. At worst it's a 15 minute wait for a leveling roulette queue as a DPS. Big deal.

You cannot assume that your experiences are universal. While it may only be 15 minutes for you, there may be other circumstances that have lead to longer time lost for other players (say they're queueing specifically for ARF for the Eso bonus, or a specific dungeon in the 50 roulette because they want the gear for glamour - they're going to have a bad time simply because you decided that your desire to not do that dungeon is more important than their desire to do it). Furthermore, you're saying that your desire to drop will result in up to 15 minutes of waiting for those people if they decide to leave--three or seven other people who your selfishness has cost fifteen minutes. It adds up. If efficiency really is the name of the game (as you claim), then leaving a dungeon at the outset is arbitrarily introducing inefficiency to their gameplay.

But why should you care? They're not you.

But really, if this is the stance people want to have, then okay. I assume that any time you encounter anyone that isn't playing this game the "right" way, you also pick up your keyboard and club them with it. I assume you will spend 60 minutes anytime you queue into a Ramuh EX through mentor roulette trying to teach people how to pass a DPS check or handle priority mechanics. I assume that any time you encounter a DPS not playing their class optimally or a healer not DPSing, you make it your mission to fix them. I assume that anytime you see someone without materia melded in your gear you take a dump on them.

Nice Strawman, there, with a slight bit of argumentum ad absurdum. You're really giving a great showcase of logical fallacies. I should show this to my high school debate teacher, because he'd get a kick out of it. There's a large difference between arguing on a forum for how things should be and how players ought to behave and being an asshole.

But there is one point I must address; the Mentor Roulette EXISTS SO YOU, WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE, CAN HELP THOSE WHO DO NOT. That was the goal of the whole mentor system. And you're arguing that, because the system doesn't do enough to discourage quitting, you should not follow through on what was the original goal and live up to that "mentor" status, and should ruin the experience of new players. You should enter that roulette to help people, and when you can't be bothered to do that, you might as well not even queue.

In the meanwhile, I'll just live and let live and let people enjoy the game how they want to even if sometimes it comes at a slight inconvenience to myself.

Way to try and make yourself look good, there. If only you hadn't argued in favor of piss-poor player behavior and crappy, selfish attitudes, it might be believable.