FFXIV: The State Of Raiding

[raela]

Raid finder sounds exactly like DF for savage, so it's coming. Just has some more options to tailor the type of player/group you want. Faust wipes ahoy!

[Alahra]

Mechanical density and increased class complexity are where a lot of the difficulty seems to come in to play for Midas. AS6 in particular has very high mechanical density (it has about three times the number of mechanics as something like T7 did, for instance, and many of them are disparate enough that progression on the floor doesn't prepare you for the next "phase"). AS8 is similar in density from what I've been told, but AS6 killed the joy of raiding for me, so I stepped down. When you add in that most classes are harder to play at 60 than they were at 50, the complexity compounds.

The game honestly does need a mid-tier version of the raids again. If they keep up the current difficulty (even if Midas is easier than Gordias, it's still overall more difficult than most of Coil), the raid population is going to continue to shrink. Midas is better tuned, but it's only stalled the bleeding of raiding players on smaller servers. It's not done much to really revitalize the raiding community after the damage done to it by Gordias. Savage content should indeed exist (and I don't think they should really touch Midas until Echo at this point, even if it still isn't perfect), but a vital raid scene requires the incorporation of content suited to more than just the highest echelons of player skill.

Given what we know about the development team's limitations right now, I don't know if we'll ever get something like that. But I do think we need it for the overall health of the game.

[otarolgam]

I'll agree to the idea of a mid-level raiding tier, but only if they stop with the idea that "huge hits" and "DPS checks" is a brutal tactic. Seriously, get more creative.

If I wanted to take huge hits, I'd go to a Marijuana Shop.

[Iromi]

I'll agree to the idea of a mid-level raiding tier, but only if they stop with the idea that "huge hits" and "DPS checks" is a brutal tactic. Seriously, get more creative.

If I wanted to take huge hits, I'd go to a Marijuana Shop.

LOL this. It is just the same stuff...different looking monsters. Do not want.

[Alisa180]

One of the major problems I've seen with raiding is the emphasis on each person having to do things exactly right, and so much as one screw up causes the whole group to wipe. This is what discourages many raiders from integrating players newer to the fight. Adding someone who doesn't know the fight yet is pretty much asking for the whole group to wipe multiple times before they reach the point they were at again.

Its hard for slower learners too. When one person is consistently screwing up, and not picking it up within a few tries, the rest of the party starts to side-eye them. I've seen many cases where a person is trying their hardest, and *will* eventually get it, given enough time, but the rest of the raid just doesn't have the patience. They'd rather find someone who can either pick it up faster, or better, knows the fight already, so they can finally move on.

Its not a case of 8-man parties, because one look of World of Warcraft tells you parties much larger can work. No, I think the problem is a combination of how one person's mistakes can cause the whole group to wipe, and a very justified lack of patience in veteran raiders.

The best things the devs could do, I think, is to tweak the raid design so that one person screwing up accidentally doesn't equal an auto-wipe for the whole group. A raid should be very salvageable if one DPS, or even one healer or tank, dies. Normally death=Yeah we aren't going any farther. It shouldn't be that harsh. Yes, there should be SOME consequences if a person dies, but right now the punishment levied on the group for a minor screw from one is far too harsh, IMO.

[VirusChris]

snip

This so much. I've noticed this a lot. One person dies and the whole fight is nigh salvageable unless the team can really bounce back from having one person mess up. It's too punishable which I find funny considering Japan has top hardcore players but hate things too difficulty (if the survey of Nioh is anything to go by).

Some middle ground would be nice or a different take on the raid fights. I like to try the Savage content, but I dislike how it's handle at the moment.

[Iromi]

This so much. I've noticed this a lot. One person dies and the whole fight is nigh salvageable unless the team can really bounce back from having one person mess up. It's too punishable which I find funny considering Japan has top hardcore players but hate things too difficulty (if the survey of Nioh is anything to go by).

Some middle ground would be nice or a different take on the raid fights. I like to try the Savage content, but I dislike how it's handle at the moment.

Yeah, this has been brought up for 3 years and SE still ignoring it and STILL wondering why less then .01% of the population does their raids. Instead they think nerfing it will make it better...noooope!

[Hyperia]

One of the major problems I've seen with raiding is the emphasis on each person having to do things exactly right, and so much as one screw up causes the whole group to wipe. This is what discourages many raiders from integrating players newer to the fight. Adding someone who doesn't know the fight yet is pretty much asking for the whole group to wipe multiple times before they reach the point they were at again.

Its hard for slower learners too. When one person is consistently screwing up, and not picking it up within a few tries, the rest of the party starts to side-eye them. I've seen many cases where a person is trying their hardest, and *will* eventually get it, given enough time, but the rest of the raid just doesn't have the patience. They'd rather find someone who can either pick it up faster, or better, knows the fight already, so they can finally move on.

Its not a case of 8-man parties, because one look of World of Warcraft tells you parties much larger can work. No, I think the problem is a combination of how one person's mistakes can cause the whole group to wipe, and a very justified lack of patience in veteran raiders.

The best things the devs could do, I think, is to tweak the raid design so that one person screwing up accidentally doesn't equal an auto-wipe for the whole group. A raid should be very salvageable if one DPS, or even one healer or tank, dies. Normally death=Yeah we aren't going any farther. It shouldn't be that harsh. Yes, there should be SOME consequences if a person dies, but right now the punishment levied on the group for a minor screw from one is far too harsh, IMO.

This so much, so much....

I remember back in older games when something bad happens like a player dies, the whole raid slows or stops DPS, gets the people back up and then continues. There were no hard enrages or DPS checks. You had as long as your physically could jump rope or your raid lockout timer lasted. Getting rid of DPS checks and hard enrages would allow for a lot of creativity for the developers. Go in with whatever raid comp works for your group, take as long as you need till the job is done. This would also eliminate the "you must bring XX class to the raid" problem and allow people to play the jobs they want, I'm looking at you MCH vs BRD debate.

[tjw]

Getting rid of DPS checks and hard enrages would allow for a lot of creativity for the developers. Go in with whatever raid comp works for your group, take as long as you need till the job is done.

Thing is though, FFXIV is different from other MMOs in that healers and tanks here can push out comparable DPS, even in the current raid tiers. Getting rid of DPS checks and hard enrages will just make everyone go 5 healers, 1 mana bitch and 2 tanks, because there's no need to have high DPS if parties can just heal through everything. You say creativity by the devs, but without DPS checks and enrages, everything will just become how long your healers can keep you up without running out of MP. The game can't go back on the DPS capabilities of healers and tanks either because of how the combat system is built.

[KarstenS]

I remember back in older games when something bad happens like a player dies, the whole raid slows or stops DPS, gets the people back up and then continues. There were no hard enrages or DPS checks.

How old? Enrage was even in vanilla WoW a thing.