we need a sword dps

[Morningstar1337]

Also I never said that they should only release SAM and RDM together or released without any other classes (one of which could be a tank) I only said I'd rather see the Samurai as a DpS that would be more viable in non-Warrior comps and added that I'd like Red Mages to use bucklers.

That's impatience for you, you assume that two classes are set to be released ASAP and then work off of that assumption. And then you find out that people don't factor in the assumption and well...you know what they say about assumptions right?

As fir a DPS that is more Viable in Non WAR comps. I can barely fathom the amount of Hoops that will take. Though having a Tank with Piercing/Magic/Blunt damage would be a start/

RDM? So long as they have access to Black and White Magic (and one each of the Elemental spells), then i don't care what weapon they use (Though I like rapiers, I'm unsure how well they would work with bucklers and that combination would probably make them PLD lite)

[ADVSS]

That's impatience for you, you assume that two classes are set to be released ASAP and then work off of that assumption. And then you find out that people don't factor in the assumption and well...you know what they say about assumptions right?

As fir a DPS that is more Viable in Non WAR comps. I can barely fathom the amount of Hoops that will take. Though having a Tank with Piercing/Magic/Blunt damage would be a start/

RDM? So long as they have access to Black and White Magic (and one of the Elemental spells), then i don't care what weapon they use (Though I like rapiers, I'm unsure how well they would work with bucklers and that combination would probably make them PLD lite)

cant agree more: id pick dps as it allows the most flexibility for things like casting spells and melee. I sort of would like to see a combination of both either as required for peak perfomance or optional given the situation (cast aoe spells from a distance, deal single target damage up close) I know a lot of people want rdm to tank but i feel like itd take away from the experience of being a melee with black and white magic casting abilities. SMN got raise as a dps as one of its supports, i dont see why rdm couldnt have a burst heal at some cost, to add to the white magic aspect of it(maybe a regen on a long cd) and maintain the other aspects as well as its core concept. balance its damage to be closer to the support dps and ninja, and it make sense to me how it could fit without being underwhelming or op

[Ultimatecalibur]

As fir a DPS that is more Viable in Non WAR comps. I can barely fathom the amount of Hoops that will take.

Not very many really. It would only take a dps class whose optimal dps rotation applies a non-stacking -10% slash resist debuff (i.e. Storm's Eye/Dancing Edge) even if there is someone else to apply a version of the debuff.

Though having a Tank with Piercing/Magic/Blunt damage would be a start/

Just adding one tank that didn't deal slashing wouldn't change much. We would just end up with Warrior + Dark Knight/Paladin/New Tank (a be force to take an appropriate dps if the New tank doesn't apply its own debuff). This would make 75% of the tank comps non-viable.

You would need to have at least two tanks with the same damage type with one applying a Piercing/Magic/Blunt debuff and this would still have problems as the viable comps would be Warrior + Dark Knight/Paladin/New Debuff Tank/New non-Debuff Tank (+appropriate dps) and New Debuff Tank + New non-Debuff Tank/Dark Knight (+appropriate dps)/Paladin (+appropriate dps). Only 40% of tank pairings would be viable.

RDM? So long as they have access to Black and White Magic (and one of the Elemental spells), then i don't care what weapon they use (Though I like rapiers, I'm unsure how well they would work with bucklers and that combination would probably make them PLD lite)

I wouldn't say the Red Mage needs either Black or White magic, but that it needs a combination of physical combat abilities, offensive magic abilities and defensive/recovery magic abilities.

[Katana190]

Snip.

Okay... you make good points, don't get me wrong. But your seriously underestimating SE's balancing, yes its been bad in the past... yes its still not currently perfect, I mean which MMO has a PERFECT class balance?
I'll get to the point, what I would like too see in a new tank is indeed the slashing debuff.. right. This alone won't solve the balancing issue... the new tank job has to be designed in such a way to make it on par with WAR. But... its already been somewhat done, DRK and PLD are at a very equal ground and are both quite viable, while DRK offers more raid damage overall, PLD offers a lot more raid utility (Although PLD played aggressively can do some nasty DPS, Source : See FFlogs...). If your missing a MNK then DRK is something you might want to consider.. if you have a MNK then PLD is something you might want to consider. This creates a DPS to Tank, Tank to Tank synergy. Now I'm no game designer but don't you think the possibility of this new tank being designed in such a way that so it works the same as DRK and PLD? I think its well within reason.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Okay... you make good points, don't get me wrong. But your seriously underestimating SE's balancing, yes its been bad in the past... yes its still not currently perfect, I mean which MMO has a PERFECT class balance?
I'll get to the point, what I would like too see in a new tank is indeed the slashing debuff.. right. This alone won't solve the balancing issue... the new tank job has to be designed in such a way to make it on par with WAR. But... its already been somewhat done, DRK and PLD are at a very equal ground and are both quite viable, while DRK offers more raid damage overall, PLD offers a lot more raid utility (Although PLD played aggressively can do some nasty DPS, Source : See FFlogs...). If your missing a MNK then DRK is something you might want to consider.. if you have a MNK then PLD is something you might want to consider. This creates a DPS to Tank, Tank to Tank synergy. Now I'm no game designer but don't you think the possibility of this new tank being designed in such a way that so it works the same as DRK and PLD? I think its well within reason.

What you don't seem to be getting is what needs to change. Making a new tank that is on par with the Warrior will not fix anything.

Good design would have Warrior + Dark Knight, Warrior + Paladin and Dark Knight + Paladin all being viable tank comps and roughly equal but each having their own advantages and preferred dps and healer setups. Currently Dark Knight + Paladin is not viable and something needs to be added that will make this comp comparable to Warrior + Dark Knight and Warrior + Paladin. Adding a 4th tank will not change anything about these existing comps.

When a new tank is added I want there to be 6 equally viable tank comps and not 1 overpowered comp(War + New) with 4 viable comps (New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and one non-viable comp (Dark + Pal), 5 viable comps (War + New, New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and one non-viable comp (Dark + Pal), 4 viable comps (New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and 2 non-viable comps (War + New, Dark + Pal), nor 2 viable (War + Pal, War + Dark) with 2 semi viable (New + Pal, New + Dark) and 2 non-viable (New + War, Dark + Pal).

[Katana190]

What you don't seem to be getting is what needs to change. Making a new tank that is on par with the Warrior will not fix anything.

Good design would have Warrior + Dark Knight, Warrior + Paladin and Dark Knight + Paladin all being viable tank comps and roughly equal but each having their own advantages and preferred dps and healer setups. Currently Dark Knight + Paladin is not viable and something needs to be added that will make this comp comparable to Warrior + Dark Knight and Warrior + Paladin. Adding a 4th tank will not change anything about these existing comps.

When a new tank is added I want there to be 6 equally viable tank comps and not 1 overpowered comp(War + New) with 4 viable comps (New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and one non-viable comp (Dark + Pal), 5 viable comps (War + New, New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and one non-viable comp (Dark + Pal), 4 viable comps (New + Dark, New + Pal, Dark + War, Pal + War) and 2 non-viable comps (War + New, Dark + Pal), nor 2 viable (War + Pal, War + Dark) with 2 semi viable (New + Pal, New + Dark) and 2 non-viable (New + War, Dark + Pal).

Since the start this has just been a debate of opinion, you made this much clearer to me now. What would be a fix for you, is not for everyone else, and vice versa. This is your ideal fix, not mine. I'm going by the confinements of the game and trends, and trying to be as realistic as possible with my opinion.. How PLD and DRK work is either intended or a design flaw but I think they have a good thing going, the best way to accomplish what you want is to give all tanks a slashing debuff and not make it a DPS loss to apply it, like WAR, I can see a few ways of doing this but it wouldn't seem right to me. Apart from that their utility toolkit is very well done.. there are some QoL changes I would love to see to PLD and DRK and see no reason to not do them to make them catch up to WAR, but I'm not SE, I can't change these jobs.

Now what you've suggested does not seem realistic in the game as of now, it's not a bad ideal to have but that doesn't mean its perfect... at least to me, I like the fact there are MT and OT types of tanks with both genre of tanks being able to perform the opposite role at a high level too. For instance, WAR can be an amazing MT and should not be underestimated to perform said role. PLD and DRK can be great OT, with PLD being able to provide Clemency's without interruption while DRK's can perform their nasty OT opener which deals considerable damage.