Can we have option to VK a player because they are below a reasonable skill level?

[Morzy]

No. Work with them. If it's a lost cause vote abandon.

[KrenianKandos]

Uhh, no... one, i230 doesn't even take effect in the Vault, and two, I'm talking massive undergearing to the point your party cannot even progress. Like, you have to literally try to be that bad.

If you, as a tank, come into the Vault dressed in your item level 50 AF gear (or worse)... yeah, I'm calling that griefing and harassment because you queued up solely to waste the time of 3 other people in the DF. There is *no* excuse for that sort of thing and you shouldn't be defending it either.

While the i230 wouldn't necessarily take effect, one must remember that the game lowers your stats in accordance to the max ilvl of the dungeon for the level sync. In essence, you are wearing all blues and are at the max level, which effectively makes you the most powerful possibility in that run.

As such, say a tank just barely meets the minimum ilvl, it is feasible that dps can easily destroy a tanks threat even on the best of terms and cause issues all around. It isn't the fault of the tank being under geared; he meets the requirement. But, to that argument, I say it isn't the fault of the dps either considering they have no control over the algorithm used in regards to their stats.

At that point it's up to the dps to gauge how much they can throw out that is sufficent with the tanks skill and ability. If it makes the run longer, so be it, because you were dealt the cards given.

Levelling roulettes is to level. The level 60 bonus tomes are incentives for the 60 to run it but never forget that the point of the roulette is for those levelling so the fact you can get a tank who is lower geared is high.

Act accordingly to that, or leave the instance and wait a half hour. Or evaluate the tank and if it isn't a question of gear and it's effectively he's just horrible at the job, then, set a vote and hope to dismiss and if not, deal with it.

I've been in runs with horrible tanks that were badly geared and played wrong. I offered my advice and if they said yes, I would help them out. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't but in the end you can't control how another person plays. I took it in stride and kept playing. I just adjusted my play style.

I think that's the point the poster was trying to make. Why boot someone who meets the min requirements and is trying his best but dps who are at the best point in the spectrum due to the algorithm used are not working with the tank and making the tanks life hard.

A lot of people seem to forget that this is a PARTY dungeon and not a "solo" dungeon where you have the right of way to play your way. Especially in the levelling roulette. I'm sure you want your tomes asap but that's not the spirit or why the levelling roulette exists.

[Corfish]

No, just no. Stop with put barriers to people for any stupid reason. And I'm glad SE punish anyone who use VK in a bad way.

YOu need destiguish if he is trolling, or he really can't play better. That's very difficult to see. It is only fair if he is trolling you, the othe case, is unfair.

Actually, SE has confirmed before that it is 100% okay to kick people if they're not playing the way you want them too. Dying to a mechanic due to ignorance or just plain messing up sometimes is normal. Causing a wipe in a dungeon multiple times over? Well, that person needs to go back and review their basics I think. It's unfair to not help out new people, sure, but it's also unfair to waste 3 - 23 other peoples time because they either A. Refuse to get better, or B. Aren't good enough to improve.

[Rawrz]

No. Work with them. If it's a lost cause vote abandon.

Yep. That's your option.

[Lambadelta]

Actually, SE has confirmed before that it is 100% okay to kick people if they're not playing the way you want them too.

Can we get a source on that.

[Corfish]

Can we get a source on that.

Although I remember seeing this addressed in a Live Letter, I can't find the right one (I think it may have been in one of the separate Q&A threads, some of which are missing, and some are blacked out and can't be accessed). I did find this though

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...28#post2358628

It's a lot more ambiguous than the statement I had seen however. I'll keep looking to find the one I'm talking about though.

Edit: For the life of me I can't find the exact statement I am recalling, and I'm not willing to dedicate too much time to the argument. Either way, the thread I found says it is okay to kick someone if they are holding you back and can't improve.

Also just saw your name. Erika is best witch.

[Fynlar]

No. Work with them. If it's a lost cause vote abandon.

Vote abandon is for when at least half of the party wants to leave the duty.

The typical dungeon run being talked about here is when 3 people want to continue, just not with the 4th person holding them back. Two totally different situations.

You're out of your mind if you think people would be willing to give up their dungeon, whatever progress they made, and their DF queue time when they could just easily cut the tumor off instead.

While the i230 wouldn't necessarily take effect, one must remember that the game lowers your stats in accordance to the max ilvl of the dungeon for the level sync. In essence, you are wearing all blues and are at the max level, which effectively makes you the most powerful possibility in that run.

As such, say a tank just barely meets the minimum ilvl, it is feasible that dps can easily destroy a tanks threat even on the best of terms and cause issues all around. It isn't the fault of the tank being under geared; he meets the requirement. But, to that argument, I say it isn't the fault of the dps either considering they have no control over the algorithm used in regards to their stats.

At that point it's up to the dps to gauge how much they can throw out that is sufficent with the tanks skill and ability. If it makes the run longer, so be it, because you were dealt the cards given.

Thing is, if the rest of the party outclasses the dungeon that much, they're not likely to die if they rip a mob off the tank (usually it'll be a trash mob; if the DPS are ripping a boss off the tank and we're past like level 30 or so -- because ST tanking kinda sucks prior to that level -- the tank is simply not playing correctly). In other words, they often can still progress the dungeon just fine.

This thread is talking about when someone's incompetence/horribly outdated gear/whatever actually prevents the party's progress.

[Aldora]

Reasonable means just being able to clear it. Expecting speed runs out of everyone means you are not accounting for the fact that there are players new to content, and that is pretty unquestionably unreasonable even just on the basis that they were all newbs once too.

Thank you. Those are my thoughts exactly. Next to the fact that the people who you are paired up with in that instance might be new/inexperienced with the content, there are also people who are not as good as the “Top Tier Raiders/Players”. But, that doesn’t mean they can’t get the job done.

As long as people are willing to cooperate with each other in order to clear said content, then that should be enough.

I know that people want to clear content as fast as they can, which is perfectly fine. But, if you notice that not every member of the party can keep up with the pace that’s being set, the first thing we should have to consider is to take it down a notch so that the entire team makes is through to the end. As a group/party/team. Not simply bash them for not being “good enough”, followed by kicking them from the group.

However, there are a few things though:

• If you don’t know what the mechanics of an encounter are, ask your party for info. There is no shame in asking. There’s only shame in ignoring their questions, or refusing to reply.
• If you see people struggle, lend them a hand. Don’t outright vote kick them without trying to help.
• If a healer is struggling to keep the party alive, please do your utmost best to avoid getting damage. (As in, don’t stand in AoE’s and perhaps pull less)
• If the party is struggling to meet the dps requirement to burn a boss down, then please… For the love of the Twelve, don’t ignore mechanics…
• If a tank is struggling to keep hate, please try to focus your damage on the same monster the tank is focussing on. (During most parties, I see each dps class single target other monsters within the pack, instead of focussing on 1 specific monster and burning it down) In some cases, you’d want to pull your punches to let the tank generate some hate, instead of jumping into the fray while the tank is still trying to generate some base Enmity on the pack.

I’m not sure if others will agree with me, but whenever i look around (both in-game as well as irl), it seems that “Patience” is starting to become a “luxury item” which (apparently) people can’t afford anymore.

[Seraphix2407]

[LIST]

I like the list.

There is 1 dungeon that I find healers struggle a lot and that's Vault. The last boss seen countless of people struggle and times where I've been stuck on it for almost 20-30 min because the healer dies trying to heal or simply because they cant heal us enough even if we dodge every aoe. In fact I lvled my pld and whm to 60 recently and healing it was also a pain in the ass, not that I struggled, I can adapt easily to fights like these. But I can understand some healers having a hard time, simply because tanks or dps doesn't avoid aoe in that last boss, or second where they eat debuff stacks all the time XD.

It's better to tell the healers what to do rather than kick them. I rather kill the boss with the same healer we had through out the dungeon and give him/her the feeling of great achivement healing the vault! I know many aren't perfect, neither am I, and as few people mentioned, you have to always adapt to new people.

Patience is extremely importent, because you, me and everyone else been new to something. What I do dislikes are people who I know and seen the same dungeons plenty of times but still can't do it, being dead weight is another story. If you are new to the class in that spesific dungeon, I'm more than willing to stay, which I have done endless of times, last boss in aery and vault seem to be healers nightmare , which I think is great, since that's how they have to learn anyways.

[worldofneil]

I don't really understand why SE would allow kicking for playstyle differences and although I can see that's what was said in the picture here it doesn't make any sense to me.

I've personally always got the impression from SE that with Duty Finder it's "things might not go the way you want with randoms, but you can form your own group/do it your own way if you want" (using my own wording obviously!).

Kicking someone who plays the job differently to how you would play the job sounds like harassment to me and if you want people to do a job exactly the way you want, isn't that what pre-made groups are for?

There isn't even a kick reason for "Playstyle differences", if there was I'd be more inclined to believe it was true and the Moderator that commented later in that same thread only said about "refusal to fulfill one's job function" which I read as a healer not wanting to heal at all etc.

Are there any other sources/actual confirmations that playstyle differences are a valid kick reason or did this come just from this one thread/image? If it's just that one thread, is it possible that it was a lone GMs opinion?